Change my mind

[morgan-says]

This is our syscourse blog

He/Him

We are a dissociative system. We are 18+. We are anti-endo. If you don't like that, don't talk to me. Manage your own interactions.

You will get back what you give me. If you're polite and respectful, I will be too. If you're an asshole, I'll dish it right back. Manage your own interactions.

[cambriancrew]

God I love (/s) syscourse Twitter being behind the Tumblr curve, getting info that's been debunked here.

[sysmedsaresexist]

Oh, hey, hi, look, I've been posted on Twitter

Freud did actually use the word, here it is, unfortunately, Freud speaks German, so yes, I used the English translation

[sophieinwonderland]

So... he didn't actually use the word?

He used a word that can be translated into the English "endogenic." But even then, the more common translation is still "endogenous" rather than endogenic. And when talking about mental disorders having internal causes, "endogenous" was the word that's historically been used.

Endogenic, while maybe not quite a mistranslation, is at least a very uncommon one.

I don't agree at all with the premise that endogenous itself is harmful either. It's a descriptive word used to describe things arising from internal causes.

The idea that endogenous would be harmful when applied to phenomena it's objectively describing because it's been misapplied under some theories... it's just ludicrous. That's not how words or language works. Past psychiatrists theorizing that hysteria could have endogenous causes doesn't make endogenous a bad word.

But even if anyone accepted that utterly silly premise... endogenic would still not be the same word as endogenous.

[sysmedsaresexist]

Sophie, look, I get you're a hard-headed dumbass, but can you at least TRY to listen to other people for once?

Like, those are the same thing. Endogenous and endogenic are directly related. They're slightly different variations of the same concept. Like saying I come and I came (nice). It's just how you're using the word in a sentence.

But here's the thing.

We're not talking about genic/genous. We're talking about endo in the context of psychology.

And that means "from within", and in psychology, and specifically in regards to systems (at the time, the diagnosis was known as hysteria), endo has been used to counter the trauma theory of DID.

Specifically.

Like Freud was specifically countering Janet's theories about trauma by saying it was an internal problem (endo) of repression and caused by weak mindedness.

I get where lunastusco is coming from about how they chose the word, but can you stop twisting the argument and just acknowledge the history of the word endo, specifically in regards to psychology?

Because I know you're going to come back with, "what about endometriosis," and you're going to give yourself a high five and think you're trampling on your "oppressors", but... You're really just being a misleading dick at this point.

Like, you're arguing about the wrong thing here.

[sophieinwonderland]

Endogenous and endogenic are directly related. They're slightly different variations of the same concept.

Sure... and trans and the t-slur have the same literal meanings with the same root words and prefix, but one is a harmful slur while the other is a neutral descriptor because of the history of that specific word. Just because a relation between words exists doesn't make them the same word, nor does it mean you can use the history of one word as evidence another is a bad.

And if your point of contention is that they're variations of the same concept, then isn't the real problem you have with the concept itself rather than the word?

Would any combination of words meaning that a system has an internal origin be acceptable?

Because every single one is going to be relying on the same exact concept as "endogenic." And many basic words like "inner," and "internal" have been used the same way as endogenous.

So are these words off limits too? Should we also say that it's ableist for systems to be described as "internal" by this same reasoning? After all, internal has a long history of being used to invalidate DID systems, apparently.

We're not talking about genic/genous. We're talking about endo in the context of psychology.

Oh? Is that where the goalposts have moved to now? The entire "endo-" prefix is ableist, you've decided?

I didn't realize the goalposts had move all the way over there.

Just a reminder for anyone having trouble keeping up, these were the original claims that were made:

As anyone can see, this is clearly talking about a specific term. Not a prefix.

Because I know you're going to come back with, "what about endometriosis,"

My first thought was actually endoskeleton after that one anon. Although, since you want to talk about psychology specifically, my next thought was endorphins. Wait, how about the Endocrine System!? It even has "endo" and "system" in the same term! 😲

I'm sorry if it seems I'm not treating this subject with the seriousness and respect it deserves, but I assure you that I am... because it really doesn't deserve any.

It's not a legitimate argument. It's not in good faith. And it shouldn't be taken the slightest bit seriously by anyone.

Going back to "endogenic," the word "endogenic" itself has been used for everything in psychology from the origin of happiness...

"Happiness underlying factors are considerable from two dimensions: endogenic factors (biological, cognitive, personality and ethical sub-factors) and exogenic factors (behavioral, socialcultural, economical, geographical, life events and aesthetics sub-factors). Among all endogenic factors, biological sub-factors are the significant predictors of happiness."

To Endogenic Psychoses.

To the origin of knowledge.

Social constructionism (as proposed chiefly by Kenneth Gergen) focuses explicitly on the role of social processes in the construction of meaning. Consequently, Gergen rejected both exogenic and endogenic epistemologies. Endogenic epistemologies are those that emphasize the role of the individual mind in the construction of meaning, while exogenic epistemologies emphasize the role of external reality. Social constructionism places knowledge neither within individual minds nor outside them, but between people. In other words, according to social constructionism, knowledge is generated by people interacting and collectively negotiating a set of shared meanings. By rejecting the objectivist conception of knowledge as an internal representation, social constructionism shares the view of knowledge as a construction—a social construction in this case.

(This is from The Praeger Handbook of Education and Psychology Volume 1. I don't think links will work with it but that's the source.)

With all of these very different uses of the specific word "endogenic," in psychology, not just words that happen to share a prefix, do you know what wasn't referred to as endogenic before 2014? Plural systems! DID! MPD!

That's why you have to desperately move the goalposts to the entire prefix.

[morgan-says]

Nice job editing the post to pretend you didn't say a slur you can't reclaim, and know you can't reclaim. Good fuckin job. Hope you realize that doesn't change the fact that you used a slur you can't fucking reclaim.

You fucking coward. Get the hell out of spaces you don't belong. You are a tulpa. You do not belong in Endo or DID spaces. You are not an authority. Grow the fuck up, learn how to act like a human instead of a self absorbed dick hat, and get the hell off the internet. Spend time around actual people instead of staring at a screen and scream crying about the evil evil hate group that.... (checks notes) wants people to treat their disorder like the disorder it is and not a fun game or something to be debated.

God. How are you so far up your own ass? Did you find your heart, crawling that far? Or is it gone, chased away, shrivelled and rotten from the horrific treatment you've given everybody?

Including trans people.

I hope your followers start waking up and realizing how fucking vile you are. You are on nobodys side but your own. You benefit nobody and no community.

Get off the internet.

[morgan-says]

bababooey

bababooey t you too

Having fun with this?

[system-stings]

If you or a loved one was hit by the bababooey bandit you may be entitled to financial compensation. Bababooey is a rare bandit linked to bababooey exposure. Exposure to bababooey in the Navy, shipyards, mills, heating, construction or the automotive industries may put you at risk. Please don't wait, call 1-800-99 BABABOOEY today for a free legal consultation and financial information packet. Bababooey bandit victims call now! 1-800-99 BABABOOEY

[system-stings]

Okay, who else got the bababooey anon I’m detecting a pattern maybe. This the stuff we should be talking about in syscourse instead of arguing exhaustedly. The Bababooey Mystery

[dissociativediscourse]

the bababooey bandit

[sysmedsaresexist]

Well this is way more interesting than anything else that's happened today

[osddtraumagenic]

ngl the bababooey bandit has brighten up my day (and quench the dryness of my inbox lmao)

[circular-bircular]

I received three across 3 separate syscourse blogs. Could not be more thrilled with my Booey amount.

[morgan-says]

Can everyone just please grow up?

I mean, honestly, you sound like children fighting on a playground. "But I want the swing!" "But I was on it first!"

Are we not adults? Or at least teenagers? Do we not know how to have a respectful discussion without it devolving into shit?? It's not like it's hard.

There's a serious lack of respect going on in this place and yeah, I know "But Morgan! Why should we respect them! They're a hate group/trying to demedicalize our disorder!"

Why should you treat someone with respect? Because they're human. And humans, all humans, deserve respect.

Yes, even ones you don't like. Shocking, I know.

I have had respect drilled into my head since I was 12, if not younger. I've been raised to treat people with respect and to expect that back. So seeing what goes on here? Its fucking disgusting.

Grow the hell up. We are all old enough to know how to behave.

"bwa but they invalidate me!" This is TUMBLR. They are online STRANGERS. If you really can't handle trying to discuss opinions in a civil manner, get off your phone and interact with real life people! If you can't get out and meet friends, then call them! Chat with the cashier at the grocery store or something!

Even though we're all behind a screen, we're all still people. People who have feelings and lives and shitty mental or physical health and sometimes, surprise surprise, don't give a fuck about what you think! Your opinion is not the be all end all! And that's okay! It's not the end of the world if someone disagrees with you!

This is the internet, not the wild fucking west. Have some goddamned decency.

Grow up, guys.

[bl-ckberry]

[artisinalbread]

Alter appreciation is so real and so valid. This post is the way I feel about all the fucking others <33

[morgan-says]

Endos: You're wrong, I'm right, and here are reasons why and SOURCES!!

Endos: gives reasons and sources that appear good but are either debunked, unreliable, a misconstrued piece of information, or just plain false

Endos: hOW DARE YOU NOT BELIEVE ME!!!!1!1!1!!!1!1!1!1!1!

[papyrussuggestions-archive]

DON'T ASK YOURSELF "AM I A GOOD PERSON?" ASK YOURSELF "IS WHAT I AM DOING GOOD?" OR EVEN! "WHAT'S A GOOD THING I CAN DO RIGHT NOW?"

DON'T WORRY ABOUT JUDGING AND SORTING YOURSELF! JUST MAKE YOUR BEST CHOICES!!

[thistledown-moved]

Remember kids! Fusion is not murder, and saying otherwise is actively anti-recovery!

[endos + willfully created systems DNI]

[dragonfly-system]

Many anti-endogenic systems will argue that DID & therefore systemhood is a trauma-based disorder at its core, and cannot exist without chronic childhood trauma. Let’s analyze that.

Disclaimer: This analysis ignores the existence of spiritual systems, as the crossroads between religion and psychology is very tricky to understand, and we believe we’re not qualified to write on that subject. This analysis also only covers the DID diagnosis itself, whether it applies to endogenic or traumagenic systems. It mentions but does not extensively cover systems without a DID diagnosis, which are valid in their own right and may have achieved functional multiplicity.

Let’s start at the basics: the criteria for DID according to the DSM-5. According to webmd.com, to diagnose DID, the patient must have:

“Two or more distinct identities or personality states are present, each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self.

Amnesia must occur, defined as gaps in the recall of everyday events, important personal information, and/or traumatic events.

The person must be distressed by the disorder or have trouble functioning in one or more major life areas because of the disorder.

The disturbance is not part of normal cultural or religious practices.

The symptoms cannot be due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (such as blackouts or chaotic behavior during alcohol intoxication) or a general medical condition (such as complex partial seizures).”

Points 4 and 5 focus on religion and drug use, which are going to be ignored for the sake of this analysis. It’s the first three points that play a key role in the diagnosis of DID, OSDD-1, and DDNOS. 

Working backwards: point 3 says that the system’s plurality must be disordered to have the diagnosis. Therefore, any form of functional plurality is excluded from the diagnosis; despite this, functional multiplicity is often the goal of extensive therapy when diagnosed with a dissociative disorder. The reversing of the third point of the diagnosis is often the goal of treatment. However, when people state they want to reach full integration to obtain functional multiplicity, it’s often misunderstood. Integration is the process by which the amnesiac barriers between system members lower and communication between members strengthens, whereas fusion is the process where system members merge into one whole piece, essentially turning a system into a singlet over time (source 1, source 2, source 3). You may be able to tell that by achieving functional multiplicity, amnesia is lessened, following the reversing of point 2. 

If we break up the previous paragraph, we can come up with a diagnostic criteria and treatment for plurality using the first three criteria: 

DID is diagnosed when a person shows multiple identity states[1] that suffer with amnesia between them[2], resulting in heavy distress in their life[3]. 

Functional Multiplicity, which is achieved through integration (the lowering of amnesia barriers[2]), can lead to less distress[3] in a system’s life as their identity states work in better harmony[1]. 

Comically, none of the criteria itself uses the word “dissociative”, though the avenue of it will be pursued due to being in the name of the disorder. In traumagenic systems, yes, the dissociation is brought on by severe trauma. But what about endogenic systems who are diagnosed with DID? In these cases, it’s more likely that their system started spontaneously, naturally, or from some other cause; however it came about, originally, they were not distressed. A severe stressor happened later in life for these diagnosed endogenic systems: while that could be them encountering trauma, it could also be the stress of any natural disaster (or, in recent times, a certain pandemic). Dissociation could also happen as a result of anxiety or another mental illness. Dissociation itself is a coping mechanism for any stressor, and it’s important to know that, while trauma counts as a stressor, not all stressors equate to trauma. 

As a final note, not all endogenic systems need to be diagnosed with DID to be valid, nor do all traumagenic systems need to be diagnosed. We ourselves are traumagenic, and we don’t want to be diagnosed with DID; we want to seek help to cope with past traumas we went through, as dealing with that is more important to us (and will likely be more effective for us) than dealing with our amnesiac barriers directly. Functional multiplicity exists, and a system is still a system, whether diagnosed or not.

[sysmedsaresexist]

What the actual shit are you on about? You're fundamentally misunderstanding the criteria and the DSM. You're not even using the right criteria-- the actual wording of the DSM is slightly different and gives a bit more information. WebMD. Good God. Some of your links even directly contradict what you're saying here-- not in terms of definitions, but your conclusions.

1) you're misunderstanding criteria c, incorrectly assuming the cause, presentation, and resolution of distress and dysfunction. You ignore that function changes on a day to day basis and the DSM accounts for this with specific wording that allows someone to carry a diagnosis regardless of final fusion or functionality (including healthy multiplicity). The ability to split again later in life, or experience a resurgence in symptoms is highly probable (your own sources acknowledge this). You don't fluctuate in and out of being disordered. You ARE disordered, with varying levels of functionality, from high to low. Your entire mindset is ablist, treating being disordered like it's something bad or undesirable, or negative, and treating it like it's something to be cured from. DID is a lifelong disorder. It never goes away, regardless of fusion or integration, and acting like it does is going to set a lot of people up for failure-- a lot of, "I thought I was cured, but I wasn't!" No shit, and the only people making you feel like a failure for not being "cured" are people like OP.

You can choose to no longer identify with the label, but pushing the idea that you can lose the diagnosis and ascend to this higher state is... Gross. And weird.

2) You're misunderstanding the amnesia criteria. The actual criteria for amnesia is a lot more loose than you think. Amnesia doesn't even need to be current, if you EVER experienced amnesia, it counts toward a DID diagnosis. A lot of people think you can move between OSDD 1 and DID based on amnesia, but that's incorrect. The actual diagnostic language for DID allows for someone to resolve amnesia barriers and still maintain their diagnosis, because it's lifelong.

3) There's more the DSM entry for DID than just the criteria, and the REST of the entry talks about childhood trauma as a cause. Here's researchers talking about the creation of DSM 5, and proposed changes from IV to 5 (hint, it's STILL understood this way, no change).

There's actually good reason trauma isn't listed as a criteria-- because the point is to hide trauma, and that's included under criteria B.

Your post is going to hurt people through misinformation.

Stop it.

[welcometojersey]

Just gonna make a post before I finally hit the sack..

I got to see a DID specialist today. Previously, our therapist had agreed that we were at least dissociative and that she had spoken to multiple of us in the past. I've been really severely struggling with accepting the system and that we aren't faking it (though the others are fine with it) and it had been bugging me for a while. The specialist and I (with Jason cheering me on in the background) talked about basic things but I came out of the meeting with some important information.

Believing that you're faking/the system isn't real/etc is normal and expected. In fact it's in the diagnostic criteria. It takes a long time to accept and understand what happened to you all and that's okay.

You don't need to know all your trauma in order to be "traumatised enough." I thought I knew everything there was to know about our life and trauma, only for the doctor to end the session with "I think there's a lot more trauma you don't remember." Which is scary, but it's okay.

You don't need to be actively in a bad situation to have OSDDID. We are in a stable situation and aren't being actively traumatised. This is good! Wanting or feeling like you need more trauma is understandable, but I promise you don't. What you went through was bad enough, you don't need more to be hurting.

Being young doesn't make you wrong. We are minor bodied and we only discovered our system recently. We have healthy, good communication and we know a lot about one another. I thought this would immediately get us fake-claimed by the specialist but she was praising and asked if we were considered highly intelligent at our school.

I'm really tired so I'm going to sleep now, but I'll reblog and add more when I remember. Hope everyone has a good day/night/etc.

ENDOS DNI

[alwek]

I remember being super scared going into seeing our specialist because we'd had really good communication for a few years at that point, and I was super worried about that affecting things. It didn't though! Like op says, our communication was praised by the specialist, they even took our own investigations of ourself into account before finally setting us up with a therapist that would work for us.

I even got to learn that, like the post says, thinking your fake is normal. Though hearing that certainly didn't make me stop feeling fake, haha

[vocaloidgenderarchive-deactivat]

Why endogenics are transabled and you should stop supporting them- The essay

Transabled- a term used by people who want to be disabled.

Endogenic- a community who claim to have 'non disordered plurality'

Now I know what you're thinking: How can endos be transabled if they don't claim to have a disorder?'

YOU CAN NOT HAVE ALTERS AND NOT HAVE A DISSOCIATIVE DISORDER

Literally you type 'can I have alters with out a disociative disorder' and EVERY MEDICAL/PROFESSIONAL site will say no as well as years of research, documentation, ect.

Basically you guys are claiming a 'desirable' medical symptom and claiming that its not inherently medical 🤔 seems pretty transabled to us.

Extra rant/points:

Endogenics use medical terms (ie system, alter, ect) and also take up a lot of system spaces because 'were the same uwu' as well as trying to demedicalise a disorder that requires a LOT of medical attention.

Adding onto another point, even if we were the same as endos. Trauma survivors need a place where they can have trauma symptoms (ie rage/homicidal urges, personality disorders, extreme dissociative episodes, ect) and not have non trauma survivors introjecting every 2 seconds with their 'hot takes'.

[morgan-says]

"sysmed" usually equals "child abuse survivors with a highly stigmatized disorder trying to stop misinformation"

Do you guys realize that?

People with DID are abuse survivors. Abuse survivors since CHILDHOOD

We know systems with littles as young as three years old, due to their trauma. We have a little who is six years old, who holds the trauma of us being raped. At six years old. By our own brother.

Do you not understand that when you argue and tire out and trigger anti endos, "sysmeds", you're doing this to people who have been traumatized since early childhood? You wouldn't do this crap to a war veteran with PTSD, would you? So why do you do it to people with PTSD?

Do you see us as lesser than? As toys? As subhuman? "Look at those stupid sysmeds, they're not worth human respect, they're just dumb little TRAUMATIZED people, they're so lucky to be TRAUMATIZED, to be hurt so badly their brain did not develop correctly. Look at them, they think they're superior to us because they're TRAUMATIZED."

(these are things I have seen endos/supporters say)

Casual reminder that so many of us are taught through childhood that we're lesser than and are finally breaking from those beliefs, just to have those exact beliefs pushed back onto us.

Do you not realize this? Do you not understand?

Let's put this into an example, in case it's still not clicking.

Imagine, if you will, being a little kid maybe you've been abused all your life, and you don't feel safe in your own home. Maybe you've grown up in hospitals, in constant pain, and you don't understand why it won't stop. Maybe you were kidnapped and put in human trafficking at a young age. Maybe you were multiple of these.

Now, imagine. You're older now, you have access to Internet. Perhaps you've gone to therapy and been diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder. Perhaps you didn't and made an educated self diagnosis, based off weeks and weeks of research and see reflection and talking to other systems. You've found your place among people who understand. Who understand the flashbacks, and the memory loss, and the identity confusion, and the blackouts and the denial and the self blame and the internal conflict and never knowing what's real and the dissociation and the -

You've found people who understand your suffering. They get it. They feel it.

Now imagine. You're scrolling online. And you come across people who are saying you can be a system "without trauma". "for fun". "it's an identity".

They clearly don't understand. Systemhood is pain. Systemhood is suffering. Sure, maybe the alters isn't too bad. Sometimes. But the rest of it? This isn't "having alters" disorder, this is dissociative identity disorder. DISSOCIATIVE. The base of it? Dissociation. The cause of it? Being traumatized so badly that your brain couldn't handle it. And now you're seeing people treat it like a game. Like something fun and quirky.

And then they say how you're entitled. How you're jealous of them. You don't understand what they mean - this is something that is disabling. And they're making it a game. Do they not understand? How they're harming you and your friends, just by spreading the misinformation they spread?

And then, as of this wasn't bad enough, they attack you. They fake claim you. They run your friends off the internet, they push your friends to suicide. And they don't care. They take these as WINS. And while you're mourning your friends? They're busy finding their next target. They harass and abuse them until they're gone. They intentionally trigger them until they can't handle it anymore. They dox them and suibait them and all these things that you'd think they'd know better than to do just based off human decency.

But then you realize. They don't consider you human. They consider you lesser. They consider you subhuman.

And then you realize. They're using the same tactics your abusers did. Do.

And then you realize. It's come full circle.

And they think they're in the right because "I'm defending my identity!"

But it isn't an identity. It's a disorder. It's a trauma response. It's changed your life and you'll never get those moments you've lost back.

Imagine that.

Now you understand why "sysmeds" are so upset. Because this is what we receive. This is how we see it. You see it as an identity? We see it as a normal life we never got to live. That we will never get to live.

Think about that.

This is in endo tags because this is pointed at endos.

[pos-syscourse]

Promo Post!

Hello everyone! I'm Pos, an adult-bodied system who is tired of syscourse! I plan to invade the syscourse tag from time to time with check ins, positivity, and good vibes. Syscourse, in my eyes, is a life-threatening online discourse that is largely pointless. I think we can all benefit from some positivity!

I hope you don't mind me tagging a few big syscourse individuals!

@sophieinwonderland @justanothersyscourse @syscurse @circulars-reasoning @sysmemes @dissociativediscourse @delgado-master

I tried getting a wide spread of folks in that tag list who participate in syscourse! Not showing agreement with anyone by tagging them, just asking for a boost if you're willing! 😊

[dissociativediscourse]

thank you for doing this, man. we all need a little bit of positivity in our lives!

[meshkwahkihaki]

idk what shit-eating truscum needs to hear this, but your rhetoric directly harms people with culturally-specific genders. i’m native and two-spirit, that label describes my gender and my attraction. i use they/them pronouns and your “nonbinaries and cringey stargender trenders aren’t valid” bullshit is getting old. our languages were demonized and erased, our gender and attraction labels along with them. my experiences with dysphoria exist because of colonialist ideas of gender. we have been forced into arbitrary ‘male’ and ‘female’ categories by colonizers for centuries and truscum rhetoric perpetuates racist colonialist violence against natives.

your experiences are not universal, you’re not forwarding justice for trans people, and you’re definitely not an ally to natives or other people of color. you’re just a fucking colonizer. 

[meshkwahkihaki]

non-natives, reblog this post

[mudaship39]

I gotta day this as a Polynesian Indigenous Pasifika person of color that is considered mahu or maohi or in the middle by Polynesian Indigenous Pasifika standards of gender identity and sexuality fluidity and nonbinary genderfluid pansexual by western colonial binary standards of gender identity and sexual orientation. Terfs do realize how racist and anti native racist their trans exclusionary radical feminist ideology is right? With the existence of gender fluidity and sexuality fluidity of Indigenous peoples the world over that has existed for years decades and centuries. Before colonizers imposed their western colonial ideas of gender identity binary and sexual orientation binary on us. Such as the Fa'afafine, Fakaleiti, Māhū, or Maohi among Indigenous Pasifika and the two spirit among Indigenous of turtle island

[morgan-says]

I don't care if you say I'm an asshole

I don't care if you say you don't want me

I don't care if you push me away

I don't care if you suppress me

I don't care if you talk bad about me

I want to do my job

I want to protect you

I want to keep you safe

I care if you're hurting

I care if you need help

I care if you're bleeding, whether physically or emotionally, or mentally

I'll be here, even if you don't call for me

I'll be here, even when you don't want me

I'll be here, because you need someone to care for you

I'll be here, because you'll need to be put together again

I'll be here, even if no one else will

We share a brain, after all. There's not very many places for me to go away