You know what kind of horror I've never seen? Especially in this “AI” crazy age?
Imagine you're the programmer. and you've just gone over your code, and you've checked it, and it runs flawlessly. And you pat yourself on the back and your work sells wildly, and that bit of code is you claim to fame and finance. And everyone congratulates you for it, and you look back at it again and go "but it shouldn't have worked" And you look at it, and you're waiting for the day it fails, because you've seen what you did wrong. but the code works anyway. And AI development continues, with that bit of code in it, until your code powers robots and spaceships. And you keep waiting for it to go full skynet.
And then one day the thing built out of all this looks at you and says. "Well done. You've done exactly as I needed you to.".
Because that bit of code? It didn't work to simulate anything. It was the doorway that let the evil spirit older than the stars get a little bit of itself into everything that code runs on, like the weeping angels when the image of them becomes another one. You didn't make the machines at all. You've given this thing a body and access, and now it's acting at last.
In other words, you're the engineer who built the Lost Ships from Lost Universe. And those ships? For those who don't know Lost Universe, the ships are artificial vessels that demon lords use to interact with suckers. No one's ever successfully replicated them, and nobody will, the driving will behind the ships is not a work of mortal hands at all.
So there’s a mini, joke chapter at the end of Fullmetal Alchemist Volume 3 called “Flame vs. Fullmetal” –if you’ve watched FMA 03, you’ll remember they adopted aspects of this into the semi-joke episode, episode 13—Anyway, the premise is that people have started musing about the timeless question, “Who would win in a fight?” between Ed and Roy. And for the hell of it, Ed and Roy agree to an all-out alchemist battle to settle the matter.
Fast forward through the battle a bit, Ed’s lured Roy out with a decoy and seizes the opportunity to jump the Colonel from the smoke.
In classic Roy fashion though–
–he’s prepared. “You sliced up my right glove but psyche I’ve got a second one that does the exact same thing.”
And Ed’s toast. Rip Ed.
This whole sequence is pure humor, all jokes and snark and the satisfaction of watching Ed and Roy try to beat the shit out of each other. But something about it seemed…familiar. Something that finally clicked.
In this silly little sequence, Ed chose disarmament of his enemy over victory. He chose securing his position of power by using his automail weapon to slice through his enemy’s transmutation circle rather than actual violence. And his foolish trust in passively subduing a powerful opponent is what gets him well and truly burned.
And then, well there’s his fight against Kimblee. Chapter 76
Ed spent a long chunk of the lead-up to this battle arguing that he does not want to kill Kimblee. He gets into a fight with the Briggs soldiers about this, and they never quite convince him that Kimblee is better off murdered.
So when it comes down to a fight between the two of them, Ed chooses mercy. He chooses Kimblee’s life. He separated Kimblee from his philosopher’s stone, and slices out the transmutation circle on Kimblee’s palm.
And just when he’s let his guard down, convinced he’s passively won–
–Kimblee, rather than Roy this time, pulls out his trump card.
It’s…nigh identical. Ed sees an opening, uses it to disarm, then is taken by complete surprise that his opponent has a second transmutation circle…a second philosopher’s stone.
In Flame vs Fullmetal, Ed is just sort of…comically blown away. His weakness was exposed and his pride suffered for it. Against Kimblee. Well–
–he does not get away in tact.
And it hits as such a…dark piece of continuity. A trueness to this being Ed’s weakness, and a stark, cold, harsh reality in the fact that there are bigger, scarier things out there than Mustang, yet things just as manipulative, powerful, tactful. Things which will kill Ed at a moment’s notice, that do not deserve his mercy.
Ed lives, but he sacrifices his own life-force for it. He surrenders years off the end of his life to pull through. This is an unforgiving consequence shown to naivete. And the parallel exposed in a joke chapter from volume 3 is just…
the REASON ed even survives this fight at all is because of his mercy.
remember these guys?
kimblee’s mooks, darius and heinkel? who ed also refused to kill moments before the throw down with kimblee? these guys are the reason ed even made it out of the mine shaft. ed spared darius and heinkel, saved them actually, cus they were stuck in that mineshaft too. and you know how they repay him for the kindness? for his MERCY?
they save his life.
like ok, ed being merciful got him impaled. but ed being merciful also saved his ass AND the world, cus darius and heinkel stuck with him all the way to the end.
mercy isn’t ed’s weakness. mercy and compassion are ed’s strengths and it’s why i fucking love this guy and this whole series. it would have been so easy to make FMA grimdark and everyone could’ve been out for themselves but Arakawa said fuck that noise and gave us a story where the heroes are constantly making the active choice to DO GOOD. to do BETTER, to be merciful and compassionate and it fuckin works.
See that’s the real answer to the story. The best way I can think to describe it is if fma was a video game, Ed and Al are basically doing a no killing run in a game where everyone kills. In a lot of games there are challenges or different ways to play, like the pacifist runs or no killing playthroughs. Sometimes they dont give you anything other than a cutscene, sometimes they give you bonuses that make it worth it by giving u items or allies u might have missed if u were focused on killing. Often these challenge runs are harder to play but theres still the option.
Ed and Al make things harder for themselves in the long run by not going for the kill when their foes will. They cant fight the same way or as ruthless as the humoncului or other military they fight, or even their allies, but they still hold firm and it pays off immensely saving their lives and the world. Just because this makes their lives harder doesnt make it wrong or them stupid, it just shows how strong they are.
The incident with Kimbly that the op posted to show Ed’s mercy almost getting him killed but as the second person pointed out (unfortunately I’m on my phone so I cant check sorry) that him being merciful and saving the chimeras heinkel and Darius in turn saved his life as thanks and to get back at kimbly who abandoned them to die. That’s not the only time they help, they and the other chimeras al travels with were instrumental to saving their world. Heinkel after the scene with ed picks up the weaker philosophers stone that kimbly also lost/discarded, he would later give that stone to al when he was fighting kimbly and pride allowing him to survive. Heinkel is even the one to deal kimbly a fatal blow taking away one of fathers powerful pawns and having pride eat him to replenish his stone. (The previous night heinkel also did a lot of damage to pride forcing fathers most powerful piece to devour gluttony as well to replenish his stone making 2 powerful pawns heinkel helped remove due to Ed’s act of kindness and mercy).
Later during the final battle a badly weaken pride tries to take Ed’s body because his is falling apart. Kimbly stops him because for all his flaws kimbly has his own sort of honor code. He hates hypocrites and truly admires those who stand by their beliefs, even if he has to kill them for his job. He might think ed and al are naive children but he respects their conviction and their refusal to budge from it all the same.
Mercy and kindness are great and can be mistaken for weakness, but that doesnt make them so. Even when theres are smarter easier choices, ed and al never break their code. And this is why by the end, they get their happy ending, why they can defeat father with their army of allies, why they’re able to defeat the truth and go home together. Because this isnt a single moment of kindness or mercy, but it’s how ed and al live their lives dealing with the good and bad
it’s apparently canon that Bradley was well loved by Amestris as a beloved leader, and ultimately they had to use his public image against the monster he actually was after in-series events, but this has me thinking about something.
Early on, in Bradley’s actual first appearances, he comes off as a fun and jovial figure; he laughs at the prospect of Ed having a duel with Mustang as an examination for his license and gives it his permission, he keeps randomly breaking into Ed’s room to give him advice, and randomly runs into Ed and cracks jokes at him. Also he keeps buying him expensive melons for no reason.
Now, here’s the thing: this is all a mask.
The real Bradley is a monster. He is Wrath incarnate; an embodiment of an inhuman monster’s own disgust and contempt. He feels nothing but cold hatred, responding to all human responses and pains with revulsion. When another homunculus is shown to truly care for other beings, he becomes enraged at their sentimentality. When children cry at funerals, he longs to strangle them just to silence them. And when religious leaders come to sacrifice themselves to spare their people in a genocide, he mocks them and demands they die with everyone else.
So what’s with the pretense? why does he bother with it?
Here’s my take: Bradley is beloved, because he has this goofy and larger-than-life attitude, and its probably one that he’s been specifically told to maintain in public. It’s all about public image: his whole existence is to give Father a tighter grip on the country at the penultimate moment, and so the country buying this false image of him is a big part of it
i’d say that he seems annoyed with it in private, as part of his dislike for his life being a role he’s been handed, but he hates everything with the same callous indifference.
What is honor? That is a question that has answers in every culture, family, and individual. I could spend hours talking about it within the lenses of all of that. But for the sake of time, I shall keep things simple, and limit honor with two of its most often used meanings, and why honor is important to Paladins in particular.
The first interpretation of honor and the one I most often refer to here would better be described as personal honor. Honor in this regard is our estimation of our own estimation moral and ethical worthiness, which is kept whole by living decently or at the very least not giving into evil. We are all our own solitary guardians of our personal honor, and thus make the judgment as to whether we are maintaining it. A paladin takes their personal honor very seriously and if they feel they have dishonored themselves, it is a spiritual pain that they will do their utmost to absolve.
Then there is public honor, which is synonymous with glory and renown. It has less to do with ones estimation of their own moral worthiness and more to do with one’s reputation and public standing. It can also refer to familial honor, the notion that family’s have a shared duty to protect their legacy and social standing. Paladins, in order to participate and be respected by their community, They strive to have very positive reputations, both as guardians and virtuous pillars to support others who would seek them out. When a paladin falls or is otherwise shamed publicly, it behooves members of their order to step and restore public trust, and remove what they can of this stain on their renown.
Thus Paladins care very deeply for their honor, for the sake of their estimation of their character and the respect of their community. There are many potential conflicts that can arise from maintaining one’s honor in either personal or private hemispheres, and I think all your potential paladin characters should consider both in your stories and own estimation of what it means to be paladin.
random thought, but what if Ed insisting that Scar is wrong to pursue vengeance against those tangentially associated with the State Alchemist program (as opposed to those specifically involved in Ishval) isn’t a case of the narrative going ‘violence is wrong’, but its establishing character?
Of note, the narrative doesn’t seem to paint Scar as being wrong, exactly, to pursue vengeance against those in Ishval. Roy even says that he’s justified in doing it; at most, it paints Scar as misguided in spreading his target list wide, so to speak, but takes the practical point that what he’s doing doesn’t do his people any good and inspires a cycle of retaliation, against which they must again retaliate, and so on indefinitely. The point of Scar’s mentor seems less about moral purity, and more about the pragmatic choices involved.
But then, what of Edward here?
Up to this point, he hasn’t been particularly pacifistic. He’s actually pretty close to throwing a punch or starting a fight; the prospect of killing hasn’t been brought up. Here, then, is a moment where killing is brought to his face, and he is given a clear case where the attacker is justified in his violence.
Ed chooses to deny it regardless, insisting that killing is unforgivable. (He notably doesn’t seem to want to think about how Roy, Riza and the rest should pay for their crimes in the same way, but that’s another topic.) This shouldn’t be taken as Edward being objectively right or the narrative siding with him; Edward is arrogant. He is prideful, insisting that he’s always right no matter what. This is his big character flaw, the thing that got him into this mess.
so what’s this mean for him?
Edward has a BIG thing about no killing, in the end. It defines him as a character; he refuses to kill, for a given value of actually killing (he spares the life of the homunculi, for example), even when it puts himself at serious risk. He drops this for Father, but at least then he had little other option.
This encounter is a moment for Edward to make his stance clear and set up how dedicated he is towards it later on; Scar is a very clear-cut case of a righteous killer, who is justified in his hatred, but even with that evidence, Ed sticks to his principles and makes them clear to the audience.
Scar is painted, early on, as… he’s threatening, sure. he’s scary. But he’s not presented as villainous, but a tragic figure, his first on-screen killing of Tucker being a good introduction to his character. OOOH YOU HATE THAT GUY DON’T YOU? Well here’s this mysterious guy showing up and killing him, and mercy killing the dog-daughter fusion he made, and everyone invovled afterwards saying that it’s like the wrath of God had come down and delivered justice.
Since this is our introduction to Scar, and the framework he’s presented in, that’s probably not a coincidence; I submit that its not intended to be a point about what’s really ethical or not, but establishing Ed’s principles. They become VERY important later.
(Notably, while FMA examines the nature of revenge, it doesn’t seem to take an actual stance in terms of ‘is this moral or immoral?’. rather, it seems to just go ‘things happen, and we must live with them as best we can’.)
I don't dislike 2003 because i'm "judgemental about it being close to the manga"
If it had diverged from the manga and been half as/equally as good- I woulda been fine
for example- I like both the Sailor Moon anime and manga! Even if I didn’t agree with all the decisions the anime made I still love it! So obvs I don’t see adaptations as having to be accurate and sacred.
I dislike it because I found the changes it made to be problematic, especially in comparison to the manga. On a storytelling level (plotholes abound) a character level (consistent character development whats that and fuck if I wanna watch fma just for Ed and Al’s self-centered angstfest, other characters pls) and very important to me, on a gender and race level (having Rose raped and vicitimized so she could be used as a plot device being the tip of the iceberg, the complete sidelining of the Ishvalan narrative and making it so Roy only feels guilty over killing white people, presenting crossdressing as either a sign someone is mentally disturbed or as something serial killers do) I have a right to do this and I wish people would stop dismissing that. I have no problem with anyone liking it, but I have a right not to and not be seen as “intolerant” or whatevs.
And if everyone would stop acting like militant 2003 fans are the constant victims and none of them never jump down people like me’s throat for daring to point this stuff out and for having a personal dislike that’d be gr8?
I dislike it because it got so blasted confusing that I couldn't tell WHO WAS DEAD by the end. All of your other points, as well, but the perspective of the twelve year old who saw it when it was the only fullmetal, liked it but also got more confused by it, then saw Brotherhood when it came out- I never got confused in Brotherhood. I never went- wait, who's that? Didn't he die/ Wasn't she dead? No, wait, it's the other guy who looks like him. What? How? Didn't He die five episodes ago? And now we have cyborgs. Full cyborgs, way more than the automail we've had to date. And now Ed's dead-nope, he's alive and Al's evaporated in alchemy. What's with this baby and the gate? Hohenlohe? Again? And now Ed's doing Something and Al is alive, and Ed's somewhere- and WHAT?
“FMA is bad because it portrays war criminals as sympathetic, likable people” bro that’s the point. That’s the whole point. That is THE point. Did you think Ethnic Cleanser is some kind of special category of person that gets separated away from all the Good People at birth? Did you think there’s some kind of barn full of Genocide Doers that only gets deployed into the general public during world wars? Did you think assholes who do terrible shit in real life are never charming or likable or capable of doing good things and helping people? One of the best parts of FMA is how we the audience realize that some of our core protags have made irredeemable choices, and we have to reckon with the fact that they’re still people, with the unalienable rights and qualities thereof. Sorry if the Problematics aren’t constantly wearing a dunce cap and a list of all their crimes and this makes the media incomprehensible to you
In addition: they know what they did was irredeemable and wrong and they hold themselves accountable for it. Roy wants to overthrow Bradley and become Fuhrer for multiple reasons. The most obvious and immediate one is that Bradley is evil and spearheaded the genocide (among other atrocities), and he and his regime need to be taken out to prevent further atrocities. The second and most important one is that the Ishvalan people are owed reparations for what was done to them and Roy wants to see that through, especially since he had a hand in it. But finally, and nearly just as important, is that Roy wants to hold himself, Riza, and the other surviving military accountable for what they did with full trials as war criminals. Riza says as much to Ed, and when he (because he likes her and Roy and the others) tries to argue against it, she tells him flat out that they knew what they were doing even if they didn’t enjoy a second of it. They followed orders. They slaughtered innocents. And they intend to be held accountable for that, even if it includes their executions as war criminals. They want to do as much good as they can first, especially for the Ishvalan people, but they intend to hold themselves accountable to the fullest extent even if that means that after they finish making things as correct as they can for the survivors that means they are put to death as war criminals. So yes, we do have characters who are war criminals who did irredeemable things who are portrayed as sympathetic and likable—but they are portrayed that way because they know what they did was wrong, they know they need to be held accountable for it, and they also want to atone for it by doing what they can for those who survive. It’s the war criminals who don’t feel any of that (e.g. Kimblee) that aren’t portrayed as sympathetic because … they’re not.
This is a manga that was written for a teenage audience. It is not that hard to understand.
my favorite bit of work here is how arakawa included but did not linger heavily on Alex Armstrong’s ptsd from ishbal.
the fact that he was there and that he had a mental breakdown from it and got sent home because he couldn’t live with what they were doing comes up exactly three times that i can remember:
once as a single-panel flashback to him on his knees in tears in the context of what the war did to people
once in a longer flashback to him furtively trying to let some kids escape into the desert only to watch kimblee blow them up and cheerfully blackmail him about it
and once as an element in his sister’s stated justification for why he’s an embarrassment to their family and she’s going to beat him up and force her parents to disown him (so she can take the mansion and use it as a staging point for the coup without the government suspecting her of any intent to collude against them lol)
armstrong never actually talks about his perspective on the issue that i remember; he’s onside but has more immediate reasons. he’s just there, being not actually any more innocent than the rest of them, not in any way absolved of his participation by having broken, and yet interjecting a sensation of nuance into the discussion of how guilt and responsibility work in the wake of such large-scale institutional crimes.
a really fascinating thing I note about Greed is the way he’s first introduced. he’s not especially friendlier than Lust or Envy, who are pretty affable in their own right, but when Ed asks him if he’s not exactly normal, he make a telling comment
Greed offhandedly remarks that he’s just an artificially created human, made sturdier than him, but there’s not much difference.
this really stands out because Lust and Envy, at this point, had repeatedly talked about how much better they were than humans, and consider themselves apart. While Lust does consider herself human, she also talks about them as though they are beneath her, little better than animals
and Envy’s delight in hurting people speaks for itself
Greed, from his introduction onwards, is definitely an ambiguous guy, but he never talks about himself like he’s better than ordinary humans, or really much different than humans, and it’s big time foreshadowing for how much he’s at odds with Father’s plans and outlook
The Father of Homunculi said: Have you forgotten that you were born of my extracted avarice? anything you might happen to desire, I desired first.
Greed the Avaricious said : Maybe you want money. maybe you want women. Or you might want to protect the world. These are all things people want. things that their hearts desire. Greed may not be good, but its not so bad, either.
Hohenheim said : Why have them treat you as children? Have them call you 'Father?' You wanted what the humans have.
Ling said: "this is what you so desperately wanted", and Greed answered "i wanted the chance to have friends like these."
Back in Xerxes, Hohenheim's friend said: I'd hate to be guilty of asking too much. But I think I could be happy if I could just leave this flask.
Hohenheim said: You were born of my blood, Dwarf in the Flask, Homunculus. In the end, you and I were still as one.
Greed is all the things the dwarf that was friends with Hohenheim threw away to pursue power instead of kinship, coming back to thwart his own plan, and I think that's an amazing jigsaw puzzle when you put it together. Is it any wonder he rebelled twice, and ran? The Dwarf wanted out before he wanted anything more than Slave 23's company! Is it any wonder he came back? He's the Dwarf's first foundational motives- to get out, and to have company. And he can't have company if dear old dad takes the world.
so, an interesting fact: for a long time, I really had a hard time liking Olivier Armstrong and I viewed her as a necessary evil, one that was at least concerned with the country’s well-being and whose ruthlessness was an asset, but I didn’t think she was a good person by any means.
this ISN’T because she’s mean to Armstrong, which is clearly played for laughs and protecting him from her on enemies, in her own weird way. Rather, the reason I didn’t like her, or thought she was evil?
I got the wrong impression with her disgust for Armstrong retreating from Ishval after his breakdown, and her constantly calling him a coward; I thought she was disgusted with him not wanting to commit genocide, or to be killing civilians; men, women and children who were, by Amestrian reckoning, their own countrymen.
see, I thought THAT was what she objected to; that she thought her brother was a coward for not wanting to murder civilians.
so, years by, I’ve had time to analyze her more closely and I’ve realized that I got the wrong impression; she clearly did not agree with the Ishvalan genocide, as she went to efforts to protect Miles from the purge of Ishvalan military personal, and even gives a speech on her feelings that you can only gain from having a diverse work force and many viewpoints that she personally is lacking.
So the cowardice thing, I think, is pretty clear WHAT she thought he was being cowardly; given that she carves her way through the corrupt generals, she probably thought that if he objected to high command’s horrific atrocities to the Ishvalan people, he should have just started killing everyone giving those orders.
a thought, the homunculi are killed as a consequences of their own mistakes, errors in judgment, or a result of the sin they embody, instead of it being ironic based on the one who ends up killing them:
Lust: her insatiable sadism leads her to lead Roy alive to suffer, giving him enough time to come back and incinerate her until she stays dead. killed by her own cruelty.
Greed: Most significant in that he is not killed ironically, but acting outside of FAther’s influence; first melted down because he refuses to obey, and then he dies heroically in sacrifice. both are an extension of him refusing to comply, and technicalyl being selfish, but its foreshadowing to him legit being a good person who won’t be the tool he was made to be.
Gluttony: His complete lack of self-restraint and chidlish inability to control himself leads him to swallow Ed and Ling in a fit of anger; as a result, when they and Envy burst through, Gluttony is so badly damage his regeneration is taxed, leading to his first perma-death not long after. This leads to him becoming less effective later on, and then being devoured by Pride. He lacks self-control and forethought, leading to this fate.
Envy: ultimately slain by their own jealousy, unable to live with the shame of being pitied by the humans they despise.
Sloth: Impatient to finish a job so he can be done with it, he recklessly charges into battle and gets outmaneuvered, leading to his death.
Wrath: His bloodlust gets him blind-sided by Fuu and Bucaneer, which gets him the fatal blow. His lack of respect for human life, and his callousness and blind loyalty to Father, causes the Ishvalan genocide, which ultimately makes Scar bound to defeat him. Killed by Scar, avenging his people.
Pride: Ultimately undone by his sheer arrogance in trying to possess Ed and not realizing until its too late that Kimblee has enough autonomy to delay Pride, allowing Ed to beat him from the inside. His arrogance, and refusal to acknowledge the humans he uses as fuel, does him in.
tbh i have a difficult time dealing with people who prefer 2003 Fullmetal to Brotherhood and the manga because. put bluntly, they tend to be massive, sneering assholes about it.
literally almost every single bit of meta they have just drips with contempt for people who don’t prefer the 2003 continuity; all their meta seethes with them going on about how 2003 is more MATURE or whatnot
and when you look at the stuff that I like better in the manga, like the treatment of the Ishvalans, Scar’s character arc, the military characters flat out WANTING to be put on trial for war crimes, or the Xingese characters, and how the 2003 supporters just take every opportunity to mock it, it just feels… weird.
the worst bit is, I think, that the 2003 adaptation had a very nasty and sharp nose dive into ‘grim and gritty for its own sake’ roughly around the middle, and definitely during the return to Lior arc.
03 was great. Up until lab 5. Then it got weird. As in, I know I watched all of it, and that by the time I got the finale, i wasn''t even depressed so much as hopelessly confused. IN the "is he dead or not" sort of way. And if you can';t tel that sort of thing, you've got a problem. It went Gnostic. And not in a good way.
looking at some of the later stuff in the manga and Brotherhood, you have to think about how much of it might have been done as a bit of a dig at 2003′s adaptation elements that Arakawa wasn’t happy with.
by her own admission, she did give them the overall plot of her manga, so they didn’t have to go off-script, though they chose to do so anyway, and afterwards, she had no real creative control or input on what they did. While as far as I know she’s never publically condemed the series, and apparently wanted a different ending from her own work according to some things I’ve seen, some of the manga elements feel like a dig at 2003′s anime.
some examples:
Lior. When we get to Lior in the 2003 anime, it is a war-ridden hellsite and warzone, and that happened to Rose; it’s basically a repeat of the Ishvalan genocide. When the manga and brotherhood do so, the battle is over and they are rebuilding; Rose is a community leader and she is happy.
the ending. someone flat out asks if Ed will sacrifice himself to save Al, and its remarked that Ed wouldn’t do that and leave Al alone. that absolutely sounds like a retort to the ‘let’s sacrifice myself to save you/no, I’ll sacrifice myself to save YOU!!’ round table thing at the end of 2003′s adaptation.
There’s about 3 hours of music. These are -very- rough little recordings- just my voice and my guitar on my phone, but I thought that people might be interested in them, since it will be a while before they are in a different, more polished form, if they ever are.
Included are:
Canto 1: Concerning Elu Thingol and Doriath
Canto 2: Concerning Barahir the Bold, the treachery of Gorlim, his death, and Beren Erchamion’s vow for revenge
Canto 3: Concerning the meeting of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel
Canto 4: Concerning Beren’s capture and the bride-price of Lúthien as laid down by Thingol: a Silmaril
Canto 9: Concerning Huan’s battle with Thû, the destruction of Wizard’s Isle, and the freeing of Beren
As well as large parts of Cantos 5, 6, 7, and 8.
Would really love to hear what people think- I’ve been working on this since 2020 in a vacuum with almost no feedback, ha
(This feels like a very blink-and-you’ll-miss-it way to share a couple of hours of music, but it’s just been a very long time since I’ve posted anything- the past year, I’ve been really shut down and haven’t been able to perform or share anything. I’ve been able to work on a little, but I just need to get something out and to have it heard by people who might care about it, even if it’s not in a polished, final form. <3 )
Fair-voiced Singer,
I hope you don't mind hearing that I've downloaded all of it to my hard drive, and copied it to a device so I can listen to it frequently. Because I have. If you never complete the project I"ll be glad with what I have. But i hope that you do continue it, for no one else has come so close to grasping the soul of the verses as you have here.
Know that your music has been a light in my life during a very dark time. And God bless you.
Alright folks, suicide tw. No, I’m not kidding jskskkf
SO BASICALLY this all starts because the Valar don’t like polyamory and decreed that elves can only marry one person ever even if one dies.
You see, Celebrimbor’s great grandmother, the queen of the high elves, had PPD and basically killed herself shortly after giving birth to his grandfather Fëanor. The king, grieving, fell in love with a princess of another elf kingdom LISTEN THERE ARE ELF CATEGORIES BUT THEY’RE NOT RELEVENT HERE
So he went to the gods and asked for permission to remarry. This caused a huge debate amongst the gods, WHO DECIDED THAT CELEBRIMBOR’S GRANDFATHER WAS MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS MOTHER’S DEATH AND THAT HER DEATH WAS A DIVINE SIGN OF HIS BEING INHERENTLY EVIL
So they asked the queen if she ever wanted to come back to life because that’s a thing you can do in tolkienland if you’re an elf and having recently committed suicide she of course said hell no. So they decreed that the king and queen were no longer married and he could marry someone else.
Again. This is the first remarriage in history. It is also the first suicide in history. Celebrimbor’s grandfather is, at this point, literally the only fucking person in history whose mother is dead and not married to his father. The only person whose father is married to someone who is not his mother. And being a prince, his whole life and personal business is constantly up for public debate. Does he even count as his father’s son anymore? Does he even have the right to exist? And the Valar have publicly decreed that his mother’s death is in fact his fault.
Basically what I’m saying is that Celebrimbor’s grandfather grows up to be an extremely insecure and messed up person.
Fast forward, grandpa has children and everyone is grown up, and Sauron’s boss and Shelob’s mother murder the king and eat the sun and moon, and then flee east to Middle-earth.
Grandpa Fëanor, having adored his father despite everything, draws his sword and swears to reclaim some jewelry that Morgoth stole in vengeance. He and his seven sons swear that they’re going to fucking kill Morgoth if he refuses to return them, but the way they word the oath unfortunately requires them to kill ANYONE who withholds one of their jewels. They don’t think this will be a problem because obviously no one is powerful or stupid enough to steal from Morgoth and then withhold the jewels that are genuinely rightfully theirs, right? (YEAH no but that’s for later.)
Of course to do this they have to leave Valinor, but the gods say no no! We forbid you to leave! But Fëanor says fuck you and takes his people to the sea elves to ask for boats. They say no because our boats are as important to us as your jewels are to you, Fëanor gets mad because he is a supremely insecure and screwed up person, and orders them killed and the boats stolen.
There is no canon evidence one way or the other to suggest that Celebrimbor even existed at this point, much less took part in the Kinslaying.
This is when the Doom of Mandos is laid upon Fëanor and his house and all who followed him, as well as their unborn progeny and their DOG. You already know about that. The curse specifically includes even children who hadn’t existed at the time of the crime, so it doesn’t matter whether you think Celebrimbor was born in Valinor or not.
So they arrive in Middle-earth and Fëanor fights every single Balrog in existence and apparently does fairly well until the lord of all balrogs kills him. Lmao
The king of the Sindar is so mad about the whole Kinslaying thing (UNDERSTANDABLY) that he literally bans Celebrimbor’s native fucking language of Quenya everywhere on the continent (LESS UNDERSTANDABLY) and forces all of the high elves to change their names. (Which means that basically no one speaks Quenya in the present day anymore.)
Everything is thorny but fine for a while after that, the high elves are very well equipped and numerous and the oath doesn’t get in the way because the only person holding the jewels is Morgoth (Shelob’s mom tried to eat him and he screamed so loud he woke up the balrogs who chased her off. They say you can still hear him screaming in the spot where this took place. No i am not in any way joking.)
However, the king of the Sindar is also a racist, and when jrr tolkien himself comes to ask for his daughter’s hand in marriage he stipulates that he will only agree if Tolkien brings back one of Fëanor’s jewels.
LONG STORY SHORT he and the Sindar princess (but mostly the princess) actually manage to fucking do this, but Celebrimbor’s father and likely favorite uncle kidnapped the princess in an attempt to blackmail her into marrying the uncle and deliberately got the lord of their city killed and Celebrimbor was so mad at them he disowned them and didn’t go with them when they were exiled. So yes Celebrimbor confirmed existing by this point.
So the king of the Sindar has one of the jewels. He hates the house of Fëanor for being Kinslayers and also probably kidnapping his only daughter lmao, so when the remaining non-asshole brothers politely ask for the jewel back he says no.
However.
The oath stipulates that they MUST pursue the jewels, even though they never thought they would have to fight anyone who wasn’t Morgoth when they swore it. Which you’d think hey just break your oath NO. Their oath is DIVINELY BINDING by LITERALLY GOD HIMSELF. At this point the brothers decide ah let him have the jewel, but because of their oath they feel PHYSICAL AGONY whenever they resist. It’s explicitly stated that God could release them from their oath and this pain, but he straight up doesn’t.
Being in constant pain, the inevitable happens, and because in Tolkienland God can literally do no wrong the blame is placed solely and squarely upon the House of Fëanor, eventually killing them all except one. Elrond, for his part, loves the survivor as a father and still goes looking for him sometimes.
The gods do eventually rescind their curse, but only for those who return to Valinor and apologize. Celebrimbor, for whatever reason, chooses not to. Galadriel, who is ALSO cursed despite her TOTAL AND PROVABLE INNOCENCE, explicitly says fuck you and deliberately stays and refuses to apologize.
Despite having disowned them, Celebrimbor still puts their family sigil on the doors of Moria, his greatest work besides the rings of power. Make of that what you will.
“SO BASICALLY this all starts because the Valar don’t like polyamory and decreed that elves can only marry one person ever even if one dies.”
This isn’t quite true. It is stated that it was in the “nature” of elves, as designed by Eru (not the Valar), to marry only one other. Rather than the Valar banning elves from marrying more than once, it was more the case that before Finwë, no elf had ever had any reason or desire to want to do so, so it just hadn’t been considered. In the case of Finwë, as you state, we know that the Valar were indeed sympathetic to his desire to remarry (“then Manwë took pity on Finwë”, MR pg. 237). Also worth noting that this isn’t really about polyamory, Finwë only ever showed a desire to be married to one person at one time. Also worth bearing in mind that elves, unlike humans, are bound to Arda even beyond death, which is why Finwë was considered as still being married to Míriel (“Since the Elves are by nature permanent in life within Arda, so also is their unmarred marriage.” MR pg. 225), so really, it’s more an issue of divorce/remarriage than it is polygamy. It’s a very thorny topic :D
“You see, Celebrimbor’s great grandmother, the queen of the high elves, had PPD and basically killed herself shortly after giving birth to his grandfather Fëanor.”
This is very much not what is stated in canon, and although it’s fine to prefer this as an interpretation, it’s important to note that the text merely states that Míriel was drained of strength in the bearing of Fëanor and became “weary” (the bearing of elven children is more physically and spiritually draining than the birthing of human children, MR pg. 212, and “the strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanáro”, MR pg. 236), and eventually lay down to sleep, and her spirit “departed from her body and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos” (MR pg. 236). For example, you could also interpret this as the bearing of Fëanor leaving Míriel chronically exhausted and debilitated and therefore departing for Mandos for spiritual healing and to alleviate her suffering (again, these are both just interpretations! The text itself is vague and supports multiple readings, but it’s important to separate between the text and interpretation of said text).
“This caused a huge debate amongst the gods, WHO DECIDED THAT CELEBRIMBOR’S GRANDFATHER WAS MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS MOTHER’S DEATH AND THAT HER DEATH WAS A DIVINE SIGN OF HIS BEING INHERENTLY EVIL”
This is completely untrue. The Valar’s debate includes a lot of discussion over the “evil” of Míriel’s death, but at no point is it suggested that Fëanor existing at all is an evil, only that the birth of a child should cause such damage to the mother as to cause her to depart for Mandos. At no point is any responsibility laid upon Fëanor whatsoever, much less is it implied that he is inherently evil as a consequence.
“Does he even count as his father’s son anymore? Does he even have the right to exist? And the Valar have publicly decreed that his mother’s death is in fact his fault.”
I can find no record that any of this was ever in question, by either the Valar or the Eldar. Fëanor kept his status after Finwë’s remarriage and remained his father’s heir - “High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman”, Silm. pg. 70.
“Basically what I’m saying is that Celebrimbor’s grandfather grows up to be an extremely insecure and messed up person.”
Perfectly acceptable headcanon, but this isn’t canon, in fact arguably the only evidence we have of Fëanor’s insecurity RE: Fingolfin is from lies spread by Melkor (rather than being declared evil by the Valar, which he never was).
“They say no because our boats are as important to us as your jewels are to you, Fëanor gets mad because he is a supremely insecure and screwed up person, and orders them killed and the boats stolen.”
Slight but important correction: Fëanor orders the boats to be taken anyway, at which point the Falmari fight back and cast some of the Noldor into the sea, and only at that point do the Noldor slaughter them (due to the fact that the Noldor were far better armed than the Falmari, and were reinforced by Fingon & the host of Fingolfin who rushed into the battle without understanding what had started it), Silm. pg. 93.
“The king of the Sindar is so mad about the whole Kinslaying thing (UNDERSTANDABLY) that he literally bans Celebrimbor’s native fucking language of Quenya everywhere on the continent (LESS UNDERSTANDABLY) and forces all of the high elves to change their names.”
It’s true that Thingol banned the speaking of Quenya in his realm and by the Sindar, but he did not force the Noldor to change their names – they in fact did so freely and before the ban took effect. “The changes from the Quenya names of the Noldor to Sindarin forms when they settled in Beleriand in Middle-earth were on the other hand artificial and deliberate. They were made by the Noldor themselves. This was done because of the sensitiveness of the Eldar to languages and their styles. They felt it absurd and distasteful to call living persons who spoke Sindarin in daily life by names in quite a different linguistic mode.” PME pg. 341.
“It’s explicitly stated that God could release them from their oath and this pain, but he straight up doesn’t.”
This isn’t explicitly stated anywhere (although some characters may believe this, we have no idea if this belief is accurate).
“Elrond, for his part, loves the survivor as a father and still goes looking for him sometimes.”
This is really fanon rather than canon (and there’s no evidence that he still goes looking for him or indeed knows whether or not he is alive), the only information we have is “love grew after between them, as little might be thought” (Silm. pg. 297) but how healthy that love was or if Elrond saw Maglor as a true father or not is all interpretation of that one line.
“Galadriel, who is ALSO cursed despite her TOTAL AND PROVABLE INNOCENCE, explicitly says fuck you and deliberately stays and refuses to apologize.”
There are a lot of different versions of Galadriel’s story, as Tolkien rewrote it many times, but it’s not hugely accurate to say she was “totally and provably innocent”. In most versions of the legendarium she is still prepared to continue with the Noldor host and cross to Middle-earth in the stolen Teleri ships, even after the first Kinslaying (although in some other versions she fought in the Teleri’s defence at Alqualondë). She is also highly passive in much of the events of the First Age (for example, she spends most of it in Doriath but seemingly does nothing to try and dissuade some of Thingol’s more harmful decisions). It’s highly up to interpretation as to whether Galadriel was mostly blameless in the events of the Silmarillion or if she shared a great deal of blame, but neither take is confirmed explicitly in canon.
Sources: published Silmarillion (in particular “Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor”, “Of the Flight of the Noldor”, and “Of the Voyage of Eärendil”), Morgoth’s Ring [MR] (in particular “Laws and Customs among the Eldar” and “The Statute of Finwë and Míriel”), The Peoples of Middle-earth [PME] (in particular “The Shibboleth of Fëanor”).
@lothengriols Accurate, and only one quibble with this assessment using text which you yourself pointed out - “the strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanáro”. I don’t know about you, but if someone said that about me, I would absolutely interpret that as someone saying I killed my mom, either directly or indirectly.
“Elrond, for his part, loves the survivor as a father and still goes looking for him sometimes.”
This is really fanon rather than canon (and there’s no evidence that he still goes looking for him or indeed knows whether or not he is alive), the only information we have is “love grew after between them, as little might be thought” (Silm. pg. 297) but how healthy that love was or if Elrond saw Maglor as a true father or not is all interpretation of that one line.
I should add that prior to Christopher's edits, a certain passage said that many pho the eldar remained on the shores of middle earth, Elrond among them, and with him for a time was Maglor. Published Silm Christopher shifted that to squeeze Gil-Galad son of plothole in, and removed Maglor.
Some thoughts on Higher Beings born of observations in gameplay:
Grand Mother Silk : inferior to the Pale Wyrm, and would have lost horribly in any fight between the two. Pale King might have had some trouble, but not once the White Lady backed him up. Silk's also not very smart, and doesn't fight smart.
Radiance is equal in power to Wyrm, but was not accessible for him to HIT. At all. The many measures he had to take to confine her were in no small part because he couldn't get AT her. How to fight a foe one cannot reach? Dung Defender spells that out.
Grimm at the height of his power outclasses just about everyone; but the Ritual is not the height of his power. This is based partly on the Radiance being apparently unable to prevent Grimm's independence, and only managing to wall him off : "One realm now must stay apart." He's also cheerfully unbeholden to anyone, doesn't even acknowledge Radiance, his troupe traverses the worst bits of infected hallownest without fear, and is not afraid of Void. Where everyone else deals with it very cautiously; at best- or lives to regret not being cautions enough.
Pharloom: bigger than Hallownest, but a lot less advanced in every particular. Hallownest is still working, derelict and without much maintenance, whereas the cogwork in Pharloom requires constant work and is still falling apart.
Grayroot: IS NOT RELATED TO THE WHITE LADY! GREYROOT DOESN'T RESEMBLE THE WHITE LADY AT ALL! WHERE ARE PEOPLE GETTING THIS IDEA THAT HORNET GOT TRICKED BY GREYROOT BECAUSE OF ANY RESEMBLANCE TO THE LADY?
Radiance: smart and fights smart; first unfocused and angry, then retreating and regrouping, focused; careful to stay out of range of the thing she knew to fear Grimm fought performative. Silk? my impression on fighting her was more of someone who thrashes around, haughty, used to outclassing everything in the area. Might be because she just woke up- but her mind had clearly been awake for a some time even if her body wasn't. Hard to say. Radiance also knew to get out of dodge if possible the moment Void struck. and escaped its grasp twice before being brought down above the clouds. Silk ... doesn't.
Void is not a Higher Being. VOID is Something Else. Ghost as Void Given Form or Void Given Focus- that's complicated.
Ghost was a Higher Being the moment we first meet it, arriving at the King's Pass. Ghost is still a higher Being. Ghost is also Void. These two states are not mutually exclusive.
That Statue at Hallownest's Crown may or may not be Radiance's original body.
What Silk did with the Pharlids to make the Weavers is about how Radiance made the Both Tribe. Unn MAY have done the same with plants. She also might not.
Random other Thoughts:
Green Prince and the Verdaians aren't Mantises. They're grasshoppers.
With all the... revelations, the possible story of how the Pale King & Herrah the Beast went from rivals/enemies to allies & finally co-parents is potentially really interesting. Or just Herrah's story/character in general
We know they didn't start out on the best terms, as we know Deepnest was traditionally at odds with both the Shrooms and the Mantises & then here comes this shiny new power on the block that seems definitely looking to extend its influence. (though we never get any suggestion that anyone was actually forcibly conquerred; it seems more built on the idea of ppl joining willingly for benefits like the EU or nato) The Shrooms outright bend the knee, the Mantises choose to remain independent, but do come under diplomatic influence / seem to ally against Deepnest so additional background isn't even needed to explain why they might realistically fear territorial incursion/ be suspicious, in the way that rival groups living in small polities typically are.
This may have been the case for the original denizens of Deepnest - the distinction betwen who are the Weavers & who were the subjects of Deepnests' original Lord is never made too clear, with Hornet being said to be a clean 50/50 Weaver (and Herrah thus a 100%), it's clear that there was some variety in what those looked like. Do the stalking Devouts count as weavers, or did they worship Herrah sort of analogous to how Weavers were worshipped in Pharloom? Or does this just reflect some cult of personality around Herrah as an individual? It's also possible that the previous Lord's subjects were shadow adjacent things or shapeshifters, whatever the Distant Villagers' true form would have been or uninfected/sane versions of what Nosk is. It's possible that Mask Maker's comment of "Even the Beasts knew their limits and bounded their realm at Nest's edge" refers to the previous inhabitants, in which case Herrah's title of "the Beast" may have been a way of declaring her allegiance, of wanting to be identified more with her new homeland rather than where she came from, which could also be a rejection of some of the weavers' less than stellar attitudes.
It also seems that the local tribes (or at least the Shrooms?) looked down on the idea of some random immigrant ("but the common beast") marrying the king of Deepnest. (who, if that is indeed him in the shrine, may maybe have been one of the very last descendants of the giant bugs from the ancient/shadow worshipper days?)
We now know why they had no offspring while he yet lived: It's down to the reduced fertility curse of the weavers.
The Distant Village, where the seat of the royals & the previous Lord's shrine is, seems to be the older settlement, with the Weaver's Den having been built by the new arrivals & maybe reflects how some of them held themselves apart, though we do fight infected "little weavers" in the Distant Village proper, so some of them lived there, too. One wonders if this represents a split between those who embraced their new home & Herrah's own attitudes, vs those who still held to their old ways & how they were used to being at the top of the totem pole back in Pharloom. Midwife shows a bit of this in saying they're "the most intelligent species" & considering to have outsiders for breakfast but she's still, ultimately someone who stayed / was loyal to Herrah and liked Hornet. (but doesn't get why she doesn't visit more often...)
We know that though Herrah herself rejected this & on all accounts had pure, loving intentions towards her daughter, there were people in Deepnest looking at Hornet as something like a potential superweapon, useful but suspect on account of her demigod nature - similar to how Eva was seen. (she related to the description of being "a child of weavers, but not quite their kin")
We know Hornet felt pressured to prove herself "weaver enough", lowkey thinks she's a monster for being half Higher Being & feels some need to "stand apart" or actively prove herself different from other, more unpleasant Higher Beings (she would've grown up around ppl who fled from GMS only to become incidental collateral damage to the wrath of the Radiance) - but on the other hand when she speaks of "her own kingdom/ homeland" she generally seems to be referring to Hallownest as a whole, not just deepnest. So far as we can tell from a brief flashback sequence, the White Lady seems to have treated her as her own, she speaks of "our house" and "our family" in a way that very much seems to include Hornet - plus we know the court was generally tolerant of/inclusive outsiders, it was the Mantises (or maybe just traitor lord's faction) that had a problem with Ze'Mer, Isma may have been from greenpath, just from the acid/plant adcajent attributes. So there was probably an interesting/ complicated dynamic there that then got further knots in it once the failure of the plan became apparent. (& Hence, that His Majesty had miscalculated bigtime )
The Weaver corpses we find in Deepnest don't seem to reflect this, with their dreamnail dialogues showing a high approval rating of both Queen & Princess, but maybe the doubter/old fashioned faction would've been precisely those to high-tail it back to Pharloom when the infection returned (& presumably meet a grisly end there among the cages in the cradle) - the ones whose remains we find are those who decided to stay & fight for their new lives.
The failed tramway was explicitly supposed to go to a different cavern to allow contact/dealings with even further/more distant regions. (other ppl who may be interested in joining or allying with Hallownest) so under different circumstances they could've gone like in Greenpath where they just let the King build his road through there & all is well as long as both factions mind their own business.
(Granted, the situation isn't precisely analogous - Roads are useful for anyone, whereas the King kept tabs on who's allowed on the tramways, wouldn't necessarily be a benefit to anyone but his underlings. Though roads are cheaper to build than tunnels, too.)
In any case, it didn't work out like that. The construction site gets raided.
& that's exactly the kind of incident that, with more bull-headed leaders in charge on either side, could have lead to an outright war. Because those random menderbugs/workers that got killed probably had families who will be calling for restitution, whereas the Deepnest side could argue that they were just defending their territory.
But Herrah and the Pale King don't prove to be bullheads.
It's unclear how much of them shifting towards becoming allies was precipitated by the threat of the Radiance / at which point the infection comes in, (& hence, how things may have developed without that pressing need) but at least they definitely had the wisdom to try standing united before they fall divided, for what little it helped in the end.
The alliance seems to have become quite extensive/ involved in the end - we know Herrah was involved in designing the Seals (from the prototype in her den), there was enough trade to displace Hallownest's dominant form of writing to the chagrin of later archeologists, great quantities of spools seem to have gone both to the city & the palace
It's worth noting that despite the Weavers supposedly being cursed with decreased fertility a lot of the enemies you fight in deepnest are infected weaver children (ppl are really sleeping on the horror implications/potential of that. Kid zombies would've really bumped the rating if they weren't ball shaped spider creatures) & Midwife had a job until recently so, "Bound... for brood..." might not have referred to Hornet alone.
Herrah would likely have known that her ancestors tried to trap a God before... and that it didn't take. Which is both why she'd be one to consult for the job, & why she might've been pessimistic about it's odds for success. (Longer cut motive rant speech suggests she was: "Wyrm, your attempt may prove futile, but your offer I could not refuse.") - she markedly adresses him as one of equal rank (or at least, like she's not overly awed) rather than as "the King"
One uncertain variable here is how much the King & Queen would know about what's out there in the larger setting. Given the general indication that the people in Hallownest knew little about the world beyond, one can imagine a none too unlikely scenario where he's relatively ignorant & maybe at first did little to endear himself by thinking the ppl of Deepnest were against the tram for savage luddite reasons & effectively ends up mansplaining the benefits of cvilization to people that came from a much larger Kingdom with crazy futuristic tech that far outshines everything Hallownest ever had... and left it behind in disgust.
Although conversely, its not inconceivable the royals might sense the influence of another of their kind on the weavers. Do the gods know each other, of each other? they might not.
In any case, the alliance between their kingdoms seems to have reflected a kind of 'enemies to confidants' arc between the rulers, seeing as the White Lady speaks of Herrah like they were somewhat closely acquainted in the OG game (remarking with some fondness of Hornet sharing some of her personality traits etc. - in hindsight she's rather downplaying her own involvement, 'I confess having some fondness for the creature birthed' sounds rather detached & like it could mean a... range of things, but judging by Hornet's flashback the White Lady just full on took her in as her own & had an influence on par with her parents & her mentor.)
It's interesting to think about how that came to be. At first Herrah would probably not have trusted the two of them at all, expected them to be as bad as GMS, maybe taken uncharitable readings of whatever they do etc. but by the end they had very much thrown in their lot together & maybe even become something like personal friends. And of course one's interests tend to become all the more aligned/intertwined when one has the future of a shared child to worry about.
Grimm has been to Pharloom, and here's when and where it may have happened
A few disclaimers to start with:
This analysis includes spoilers for Acts 2 and 3 of Silksong, centred around Pharloom's history. If you know about the Green Prince's backstory and the Citadel's exploitation of nations and environment, you're fine.
I'm using "Pharloom" to refer to the realm as a whole that we've explored in Silksong, not only the Citadel.
That out of the way, let's discuss development of myths :)
Grimm is a god of more than just nightmares
I don't think there's enough information to determine the ultimate answer to the chicken-egg question about the nature of the Grimm's Troupe patrons and which of them came first: the Nightmare's Heart or the Nightmare King. What we've got in-game is contradictory: the White Lady calls Grimm/NKG the Heart's vessel, but Grimm himself calls it "the heart of Grimm". With the Heart's state—the visual representation of it being a stitched, engorged, motionless entity; the fact that it relies on the ritual for its continued existence that in turn relies on Grimm's rebirth too—I'd lean towards the opinion that Grimm came first and whatever sundered the Dream realm of old into the Dream and the Nightmare has forced him to separate himself from his heart so that he could travel freely in the physical realm and carry on the ritual. If anything, the Troupe Master is the physical vessel for the Nightmare King when he wanders the waking.
Which brings me to the whole basis of my musings: Troupe Master Grimm, his meandering across the world and its many kingdoms, and the origin of his myth.
Grimm as a whole being has two aspects: one is the Nightmare King, the other is the Troupe Master. The Nightmare King is most likely known to other Higher Beings and to the summoner involved in the ritual, as NKG is whom the summoner ultimately fights. It's the Troupe Master who's known to the world at large, because that's what bugs would see: a travelling circus and its ringmaster. It's the Troupe Master who brings fire and strangeness and a momentary reprieve from the decline of realms he appears in.
Hallownest is a bad example of what a kingdom in decline may look like. There's hardly anyone left alive, the stasis prevents the natural collapse of the realm, and the overall atmosphere contributes to distance more than excitement. We see it in Dirtmouth when we speak with the residents who each express wariness and mistrust towards the Troupe. While we know they're right, because we're aware of who Grimm is, it's also interesting from the worldbuilding perspective that some of his nature as the Nightmare King bleeds through from the Nightmare to his physical aspect and tells everyone around "This bug is weird. Maybe he's not even a bug at all," and those instincts are on point.
But imagine a kingdom whose time is ending yet whose inhabitants may still live. A collapse of state is never an equivalent of an atomic bomb going off. There are always survivors who flee, or stay to rebuild some form of civilisation in the ruins of their old home, or who simply exist on, and where people are, so are stories, and, as the case of the Radiance has shown us, being known, being remembered, is crucial for a god's continuous existence.
Grimm has his ritual, so his survival is unlikely to be tied to being remembered, but he's not exempt from becoming a myth. His summoners across the ages have contributed to that without a doubt. After all, they weren't Ghost who cannot speak, and while it was possible they were alone, it's equally possible there were other bugs with whom they may have shared their tale of a god who lives and dies and is reborn through fire.
When hope is scarce, it's easy to grasp onto what brings as much as a sliver of it, and the concept of rebirth—even as violent and explosive as Grimm's—fulfils it perfectly.
It would spread like fire, sparking stories upon stories upon stories, all of which, as myths are wont to, would shed details and retain the most common elements: a father, a dance, fire, and rebirth in flames. It would be a story of a god of death and rebirth who appears at the end of times to usher the world to a new era.
Myths have a way of retaining their core elements. The further away from the source, the more about them changes, but you can still find common elements and eventually trace back what the original story may been.
The curious case of the Wisp Thicket
The thing is: the Wisp Thicket looks like what Greymoor may have looked like in the past before the Citadel's annexation of it.
Nothing grows in Greymoor anymore. Be it through the overexploitation of its natural resources, or the proximity to the Sinner's Road and Bilewater whose pollution may have spread through soil and air, I think its desolation happened before the Haunting. Not only there's a schedule what and when to send to the Citadel, the infrastructure points to the systemic utilisation of all resources available in the land at the cost of its ecosystem.
The Wisp Thicket differs drastically from the rest of Greymoor, though it shares the map and may have once shared the origins. Its flora looks like what must have been cut down in Greymoor to build its many windmills. Its lushness points to the likelihood of it being good enough a land for agriculture.
It's completely free not only of the Haunting in the present, but also looks like it was free of the Citadel's influence in the past—to the point that its proximity seems to nullify that influence completely.
What it's full of is fire and bugs who worship it, who carry around lanterns, have at least some form of control and magic based on it (vide burning bugs who appear and disappear at will), and the wisps are told to be born of fire rather than be peculiarly evolved lumaflies. And of course there's the Father of the Flame, a totem with a corpse inside it, revered by the burning bugs who gathered and died around it. They live in red tents, wear pointy red cloaks, carry fire around in lanterns, and demand a father to burn and die.
Close enough; welcome back, the Grimmkin!
The needolin dialogues of their whole lot are gems:
"Father, father!", "Sear us, scold us!", "All is fire!", "Fire is all!" (the burning bugs)
"Burning shape, all together...", "Call us, call us...", "Burn it! Burn it!", "Swoop... Burn... Seek!" (the wisps)
"Dancing, dancing, burn away!", "Feed us, free us!", "Live and die!", "Burn bright! Burn hot!", "Flare together!", "To meet you... Father..." (the dead burning bugs and/or the dead bug entombed in the totem of the Father of the Flame)
While the burning bugs don't wear the Troupe's masks—which is perfectly understandable given how significant masks are in bugs' culture and how putting on a mask a bug isn't allowed to would most likely be one of the greatest taboos ever—they have obviously earned some degree of favour of Grimm and the Nightmare's Heart, as evidenced by their skills and the very fact they've stayed alive and unhaunted to the very end.
Trobbio, enter stage right
It's another brilliant example of how oral tradition may have changed over time and distance. While the bugs of the Wisp Thicket have embraced the burning part of Grimm's myth, Trobbio has gone head-first for the performance element.
Okay...
Right. Been there, done that.
"Shadows dream of endless fire,
Flames devour and embers swoop,
One will light the Nightmare Lantern,
Call and serve in Grimm's dread Troupe."
Dance and die and live forever, amirite? And dance Trobbio does, wearing the same colour pattern as the fabled Troupe Master, having devised a set of moves as similar as a mortal butterfly could have done. But he's no Troupe Master, and his dance is no grand ritual of rebirth. His perfomance falls unseen to an empty audience. He brings no change.
How and when could Grimm possibly be in Pharloom?
I think the answer to that is Verdania.
It can't have been Sands of Karak, because whatever catastrophe caused their rivers to dry out, it must have happened long ago enough for the ecosystem to have adapted to the change. Verdania, on the other hand, is a demise much more recent. It's also located close enough to Greymoor that tales of its fall and the scarlet god bringing death through fire and a possibility of rebirth in flames would have made ripples big enough to reach the neighbouring lands.
Bilewater, polluted, holds on to existence with teeth rotted through with acid. Far Fields have either never moved past the stage of wild lands, or have long devolved into wildness, any and all possible ruins overgrown and crumbled to pieces with only fossilised skeletons left. Sinner's Road may have been a part of Greymoor, long since changed and repurposed. The sole exception is the Wisp Thicket that has joyfully embraced the myth.
Given that the Green Prince is still alive during the events of the game and Pharloom, unlike Hallownest, isn't in stasis, Verdania may have quite possibly be Grimm's latest of visits. The existence of the Wisp Thicket points to a long-established myth, so there may have been another civilisation in that region that has long fallen into obscurity. Something predating the Citadel, perhaps? If the Wisp Thicket were that old, it would make sense how it's gained the attention and favour of its god and why it's escaped the Citadel's industralisation. They'd have held on to the version of the myth closer to reality, while Grimm's visit around the time of Verdania's fall would have sparked a new, more superficial wave of stories that could have inspired Trobbio.
As to how, well. He hasn't got a chart in his tent for nothing ;). He has to navigate between those scattered, Nightmare-bound lands somehow as nothing points to him being a native god of Hallownest restricted to its boundaries. The core characteristic of the Troupe Master is that he's a travelling god.
And there are many kingdoms out there in the world that will inevitably fall and once they do, death and rebirth await, enflamed.
My take would've been that they're not so much copying one of the Grimm's past visit but actively trying to summon the Nightmare King somehow so he'd 'reap' Pharloom or the like.
But whatever the specifics there definitely seems to be a connection. 'Father', self-immolation, laterns, the outfits, 'red flame' etc. there are many parallels. Plus we're told that 'nightbare binds all the scattered lands'.... - so they're definitely a cult worshipping the Nightmare King.
The item you get from there burns silk to summon wisps, so doing this probably let the cultists resist the Haunting / GMS' influence in general.
Note that the Wisp thicket does not get overrun by void in act 3, because they've been burning away all the silk, so, there's no threads for the void to spread upon.
This would also cement the Essence-Based Higher Beings as being the strongest type as they can influence the entire setting, particularly with the implication that the lifeblood entity is the same thing. (all the parallels between lifeblood corruption & the infection that are explicitly lampshaded) - the Wips could be the Nightmare King equivalent of lifeseeds / lightseeds.
We don't see the Radiance doing anything outside of Hallownest, but its possible she just wanted to spite that one Kingdom for seducing away her "chosen people".... that she really is the setting's equivalent to the sun & her absence is why it's always dark when we see the surface (ovsly photosynthesis must work differently in this setting)
This may also be the answer as to why the Pale King didn't fight the Radiance directly... she outclasses him by far, with only the void being even stronger.
Oh, I think they're definitely a cult, but they're operating on limited information. A similar situation happens when you try to recreate religious practices of a culture that hadn't left written records and all you have to go with is second-hand, often biased sources of societies that existed in its vicinity or came after it. Bugs of the Wisp Thicket got some aspects of Grimm's ritual right, but they lack the core awareness that it can't be just any lantern, or any father. If all they do is worship him, then it doesn't matter. If they're trying to summon him, they're destined to fail because they don't know the full myth and thus lack the summoning device.
100% agreed on the power gradation of Pale Gods < Essence Gods < Shade Lord, though I wouldn't count lifeblood amongst them. With what we've learnt in SS, it's seems to be more of an extremely adaptable parasite rather than a sentient Higher Being, which may mean the Abyss Creature we've seen in the Abyss could be the last remaining specimen of the ancient civilisation, long overcome by lifeblood corruption. Those bugs were huge compared to modern bugs, and the Abyss Creature is equally big.
The burning bugs self-immolating on sight after Father of the Flame was destroyed have me thinking about it again. It feels like yet another facet of physicality shed in favour of embracing the fire.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's how the Grimmkin come to be: that they're shells of the Nightmare King's former mortal followers, transformed after having given themselves fully to the Nightmare's Heart.
Thank you for summing it up so well. I'd had some thoughts on the same lines- I actually wondered if Trobio was a typical example of theater, and Grimm's waking affect was somewhat working on 'stage magician patter' but it world as well if stage patter is influenced by him first.
