Thx 4 killing me with ur tags on that JC x WWX post. For me a big problem is that WWX is saying these things, like, magnanimously. He's perfectly certain that he's the one that sacrificed, so he's the one who can forgive debts. He thinks that terrible things happened to JC, but that's not the same as JC deliberately sacrificing something. :( I love WWX but he can genuinely be SO condescending T. T
oh you mean these tags? haha looks like somebody sure was sad in the middle of the night when she wrote those!!
i give up every time i try to write something about wwx and jc's conversation in the temple, because there's just so much going on and so much to say about it. and the emotions, anon! it's a lot. i have been turning this ask over in my mind since you sent it and i'm not sure i can do it justice, but i can't let this be another time i spend hours thinking about yunmeng bro tragedy with nothing to show for it. not when there's an ask at stake!! so let's do this.
the best thing about the temple scene imo is that we don't know until later that jc lost his core because he sacrificed himself in place of wwx, so the scene hits totally differently if you go back and rewatch it with that knowledge. i appreciate that bit of POV craft, because it allows us to sympathize with each of them in turn, and it makes it easier for us to separate from the protagonist enough to really delve into how his (well-intentioned and sympathetic) actions have affected others. jc's reaction in the temple makes sense when all we know is what wwx knows (it's basically the reaction that wwx was expecting, after all), and then it makes a different sort of sense with the benefit of that extra layer of understanding that wwx doesn't have. and of course the second time around, we can hear everything that jc is saying indirectly that wwx won't be able to pick up on, so that's a fun little hurtful treat for us.
the best thing about this ask is that it gets at two of the reasons this conversation fails: first, that jc is keeping a key piece of information from wwx, and second, that wwx's oxymoronically egotistical selflessness makes it very difficult for him to understand that jc has valid reasons to be upset about the act of sacrifice wwx performed on his behalf without his knowledge or approval. this is why wwx ends up saying the exact thing jc least needs to hear, and why they part ways both looking absolutely heartbroken even though i think that they actually want the same thing: to be brothers again. </3 </3 </3, anon.
to start with the first reason the conversation fails: wwx doesn't know that jc also did something selfless for him, and that in fact it was jc's selfless act that led to wwx's. i don't know that knowing about this would solve the problem, but wwx might be less condescending if he knew? he would have more context for why jc is so bitter about the core transfer and subsequent lying (though he'd still be missing other context, because that's not the only reason jc is bitter).
one of the things jc is pretty mad about in this scene is that wwx is the one who gets to be noble and self-sacrificing all the time. oh, must be nice to just be able to abdicate your responsibilities for the sake of your conscience. must be nice to get to play hero. jc doesn't have the luxury. he has people depending on him. he can't abandon his sect (or his nephew), because wwx already did that, and jc is all they have left.
but something i didn't pick up on the first time around is how much his tone is just dripping with irony. because HE knows that actually yes he did do something noble! he did give something up! but wwx doesn't know that and jc's not gonna tell him, because...i'm not sure actually. anyone have any ideas? anyway. whatever his reason for keeping this secret, jc's inner turmoil ends up coming out as a kind of petty and ungrateful tirade, because he's very frustrated and hurt. and what's even more frustrating is that he must know that even though he is currently mocking wwx for hiding the core transfer from him because wwx is ~*~*~sooooo noble uwu~*~*~ what's actually true is that he's the one hiding his sacrifice from wwx, and wwx will never know about that aspect of jc and will keep thinking he's the only one who can be selfless.
another thing that jc is mad about is that wwx negated jc's own sacrifice. jc made a decision for himself for once, and sure, it wasn't like a lot of planning went into that decision or anything, but it was his and he made it based on his own priorities. and then wwx came along and just undid the whole thing! because he has always felt entitled to doing whatever he thinks is best for jc without thinking about what jc wants or how infantilizing that is for him.
ultimately wwx is the one who 1) gets to make sacrifices that aren't immediately negated and 2) gets to be recognized as a selfless hero eventually when the truth comes out. jc is stuck being the target of his superior, noble brother's charity, again, and wondering for the rest of his life why everybody he ever loved thought he was such a baby that he couldn't be trusted to make any decisions or do anything for himself. and if he expresses any anger about it, he's just an ungrateful asshole who doesn't appreciate everything wwx has done for him. it's possible that wwx would have been able to interpret jc's anger differently (though, again, not entirely correctly) if he knew about this, though unfortunately it's much more likely that he'd focus on the "jc is mad that i showed him up by being better at self-sacrifice" angle rather than the "jc is mad that i recklessly put myself in danger even though my safety was his biggest priority" angle or the "jc is mad because i don't really recognize him as an autonomous being capable of making his own decisions" angle.
i also think jc would have acted differently in the temple if he weren't keeping that secret. part of the reason he's so vitriolic is because wwx is acting like this whole thing was a one-way street when it very much was not, but jc can't say that without revealing something he doesn't want to reveal. it's also possible that jc is grappling with the cognitive dissonance of knowing that he himself is keeping a secret that is similar (though not equivalent) to the secret that wwx kept that he's so angry about. that's a source of discomfort that wouldn't exist if jc's sacrifice was also out in the open.
okay, on to the second reason that this conversation is doomed to fail, aka wwx thinks that he’s the one best qualified to make decisions, and that his decisions are always correct as long as he prioritizes the needs of others before his own.
i read an interesting twitter thread back in november that sort of recontextualized wwx's memory problems for me in a way i think is relevant to this. wwx's bad memory is a feature, not just a bug. he values doing good as a matter of course and doesn't think that it's important for him to remember his own acts of altruism; on the contrary, maybe it is actually more righteous if he doesn't remember them. and that SEEMS like a really good quality, and it for sure is in some ways! it means he gives freely and easily and doesn't resent people if they don't give back to him in equal measure. but it also means that he forgets things that have an impact on other people and are important to them, which is its own kind of self-centeredness. he maybe doesn't care as much as he should about how people feel about the things he's done for them.
this also ties in with a point @winepresswrath has been making (e.g., here) about how wwx's commitment to doing the right thing and taking care of everyone is both really beautiful AND really patronizing, because it comes at least partially from a place of thinking he is in fact better than everyone else (both at doing things and at knowing right from wrong). and like, he kind of is?? he's a genius, he's incredibly talented at uhhhh basically everything except maybe laundry i guess (and that's just because he won't APPLY himself), and he's the only person other than mianmian in the entire cultivation world who is willing to stand up and say, "okay, but have we considered that perhaps mass murdering civilians based solely on their family name is not super cool of us?" so like, i can definitely see where he's coming from with the superiority complex thing. i, too, think he's better than everyone else! like, no contest. but being right and highly competent doesn't mean that he can just bulldoze all over everything without negatively impacting his relationships with the people he cares about. in fact, feeling superior to everyone is always going to make it harder for him to make good, healthy choices in his relationships, because he's constantly discounting the opinions and feelings of the people he loves because he thinks he knows better than they do. he does it out of love for them, and with his highest priority being their safety and happiness, but still. it's not conducive to having, like, actually equal partnerships with people.
the whole situation in the temple is the perfect storm of all of wwx's simultaneously best/worst qualities. first off, like you said, it has not even occurred to him that jc could also have sacrificed something for him. this is partly because of his belief that he's more selfless and martyr-y than jc; partly because of his attachment to taking care of jc as his little brother and sect heir (and not the other way around); and partly because while he thinks he's better than everyone else, he ALSO simultaneously believes that he is not worthy of being anybody else's priority. all these years he's been positive that he's the only one of the two of them who knows the full story, which is dangerous because, as it turns out, that has not been true for even one single second. you don’t have all the facts, bro!
the second place he goes wrong is in assuming that because he likes to forget about the nice things he's done for people, and because he can see that it's upsetting jc to think about this whole situation, he decides - as a favor to jc! - that they should just forget about it. but it takes two to tango, wei wuxian. you can't just assume you know what's best for him. that's what got you into this whole clusterfuck in the first place! and maybe jc doesn't want to forget about it. maybe there's something deeper going on here!!
and okay the biggest way he fucks up in this conversation (which obviously goes all the way back to the core transfer itself) is by assuming that the core transfer was an unreservedly good thing for jc. from wwx's perspective, it was a no-brainer. obviously if there was anything that he could do to help his brother, his sister, or his sect, he was gonna do it. and when wwx is sitting there in the temple with jc, after coming back to life and seeing how jc has lived, become a formidable cultivator, rebuilt the sect, and raised their sister's kid, he's still thinking to himself that this was the best possible outcome. without wwx's core, jc would have died, or at the very least he wouldn't have been able to lead the sect. so the core transfer was in fact a good thing that he bestowed upon jc, a debt that jc owes him (i don't think he thinks of it that way, but he believes jc does) and this means that wwx is the one who can forgive the debt (or say "it wasn't a debt to begin with, because it was actually me who had a debt to the jiang sect and this was just how i paid it back") and decide that they should move past it.
but!!! he's overlooking several things. he never asked jc if he was down for a core transfer (an experimental procedure with a presumed 50% success rate that requires the donor to be in excruciating pain for an entire day, and even if it's successful and everybody lives, the donor loses all their superpowers and gives up their chance to become immortal). then he lied to jc about it for years, allowing jc to make all sorts of decisions (and draw all sorts of conclusions about whether or not wwx even cared about him at all) based on partial/inaccurate information. all along, wwx has thought that the knowledge that he had wwx's core would be crushing to jc because of his inferiority issues (and also guilt), so i think that's what wwx thinks is happening in the temple. and it is, but it's not the only thing! jc is also allowed to be mad about how:
wwx violated his autonomy and performed medical procedures on him without his consent!
jc is now looking back in hindsight and hating all his own choices, because they were actually not in keeping with his values but he had no way of knowing that at the time because wwx was lying to him!
jc stabbed wwx, which he never would have done if he knew wwx was coreless!
wwx let jc believe he left the sect because he loved the wens more than he loved jc!
wwx never told him what wen qing had done for him!
there was actually a really good fucking reason wwx had to stop cultivating with the sword and start messing around with resentful energy but wwx let him believe that he was just doing it because he can't be tied down, man!!!!
these were all wrongs that wwx committed against him, but wwx is maybe not capable of seeing it that way.
not to mention it's super insulting to be like "i thought your ego was too fragile to handle it and i didn't want to have to watch you cry like a baby" so, uh, there's that also. i bet wwx has been downplaying his accomplishments his whole life because he wanted jfm to pay attention to jc, and that's a very kind and understandable move for a child in an abusive household to make, so i'm not knocking it at all. but i also bet jc picked up on it, and it just fed into his own self-esteem problems even more to know that he sucked so much that his brother had to pretend to be dumber than he actually was just to help him out. and now that they are adults, it would be great if wwx could stop treating jc like a child that he has to protect from the knowledge of his own inferiority, because 1) jc is not a child and 2) jc can tell that's what he's doing and it's pretty offensive.
of course, wwx isn't picking up on any of this in the temple. as far as he's concerned, the temple conversation is just affirming all of his reasons for not telling jc: jc was too fragile for the truth, and this is just another thing jc is going to take as proof that wwx is better than him and feel shitty about. also, now jc probably feels like he owes him, and that's the last thing wwx has ever wanted. so i don't think wwx leaves the temple feeling like if he could go back in time he would do anything differently, he’s just really wishing wen ning had kept his mouth shut like wwx told him to.
but all jc really wants from wwx is for him to say sorry for the lying and to say that he didn't want to leave him. that the core transfer, however misguided it was, was an act of love. that he had to leave the sect and break his promise to stay by jc's side not because he stopped caring about him, but because it was a consequence of that act of love. that leaving the sect was in fact a sacrifice on wwx's part, because he did mean that promise and he wanted it as much as jc did.
wwx can't see that that's what jc needs him to say, even though it's all true. the only thing he apologizes for is breaking his promise, because he sees that as a matter of honor that jc is laying at his feet, like how dare you break this vow? so he apologizes for going back on his word, but he doesn't say he's sorry for leaving jc behind or for lying to him. he doesn't see that that's what jc is really talking about - that it hurt him to be abandoned by his brother. he doesn't see that that's what jc actually wants him to address. (and i'm sure an apology for disregarding his autonomy all the time would be nice too.)
they're both talking around each other in that conversation. jc can't come right out and admit to all the things he's actually upset about because his molecules would explode if he showed that much tender emotional vulnerability in front of people. wwx doesn't have all the facts AND he's completely incapable of putting the ones he does have in the context of jc's feelings.
so when wwx says "all those things are from my previous life and we should both stop lingering on them",
wwx thinks he's saying: let's try not to dwell on the whole core thing and all the sad family shit that brings up. the last thing i want is to cause you pain, so let's just pretend this never happened. the slate is clean, the ledger is balanced. we're good.
but jc hears: we were brothers in my previous life, and i once promised we always would be. but that was a long time ago and a lot has happened since then. there's too much baggage now. we should just move on and go our separate ways.
and then wwx wipes away one of jc's tears, and smiles at him, and rubs his shoulder. wwx thinks he's just relieved jc of a great burden; jc thinks he’s just been brother-divorced. again.
i don't know how they end up coming back together to be a family again, but i do believe that they both want to, and so in my heart of hearts i believe that they will somehow. either through a lot of soul-searching and individual growth, or through one of these very quality and much more believable mechanisms. i live in hope, anon. someday.
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