Sour Not Sweet

◇ Adult ◇ Plural ◇ Alterhuman ◇

[sour-not-sweet]

Hello my little sweet and sour followers

Welcome in, this is a space for us to participate in tumblr discourse without it touching our personal blogs. We have decided we would like it separated, so here we are.

Fun fact: This blog's name plays off our main account's name.

What you will find here

Syscourse (#syscourse)

System discussion (#syscussion)

Alterhuman discourse (#AHcourse)

General discourse (#othercourse)

Vents (#sour not sweet)

Good tips, info, and opinions (#words of wisdom)

Memes probably

Civil debates

Sarcasm and mouthy banter

If comments or reblogs are deleted a comment will be left on why, with a warning to not repeat the behavior, and if they refuse the user will be blocked.

What you will not find

Harassment and death threats (I will not create or reblog any post that contains these)

Playing Favorites (I do not use pro/anti/or neutral labels for myself and believe all sides have faults to be critical of)

Dog piling (if you see this or are worried please let me know!)

A dni (I curate my own boundaries)

Forcing one way of doing things (what works for someone will not always work for others)

Our stances

Against misinformation

Refuse to accept wilfull ignorance

Psych critical

Support taking chances and making mistakes

Support letting people be free to explore to better understand themselves and their experiences (you do not know someone better than they know themselves)

Silence does not mean I agree

I know a losing battle when I see one at this point

I have no interest in making anyone change their stances or taking back shitty things they may be feeling or expressing. I am just here to point out misinformation, irony, and hypocrisy. (Example: someone is expressing they feel unsafe around a group, but their reasons are fostered by misinformation. So I will not seek to invalidate their feelings, but I will counter the misinformation.)

I will focus on aspects of a post, while ignoring others. This does not mean I agree with what was said by the original poster. (Example: Someone is claiming a group is ableist, but they used ableist language towards them in the post. I focus on the ableist language instead of adressing if the other party is ableist or not. This does not mean I agree with OP. )

Things to keep in mind if interacting with us under the cut

I will not be reading every pinned post of every single person that posts in the tags. That ain't my problem. If I want to follow someone, THEN I'll check. Block and move on without making a scene if you do not want me interacting. If stated clearly on a post I'll usually respect it. But in some cases I may push that boundary. Again, just block if you don't like what I had to say.

If you can't interact or messages go unanswered it is likely because you are blocked on our main account. Whoopsie. The biggest downside of side blogs, honestly.

You do not need to know my mental health history nor my system origins. Although, it is not a secret so you'll likely see us sharing information as is relevant to discussions.

I tend to not hold long terms opinions about people I debate or interact with unless you become a regular. Our memory is too shit to remember people and online discourse is just one facet of someone. So don't be surprised if I start having a casual, friendly conversation with you during or after a debate, or on a different post entirely. If I do this and you aren't comfortable with that just let me know you'd like space! I'm not a one dimensional discourse machine. We are still human (kinda) and like human connection. Plus it can help defuse tense interactions. Hm. Very cat like of us. Lol ♥️

Warning:

I am millennial as fuck and will cuss, use emojis, type out actions *waves to make my point*, spam gifs, overuse "lol", and inevitably bring in old time text expressions :D

Enjoy your stay!

[henrymuck]

Partner system dating can be irresponsible IF both systems involved are not actively in therapy or getting any kind of help.

You’re essentially navigating multiple relationships at once with identities your brain spilt to protect you. That can become emotionally exhausting and harmful to both systems if you and your partner system are emotionally dependent on each other.

That being said I’m not against it (having an ex partner system myself) but if you are pursuing it, please be careful and responsible.

[sour-not-sweet]

If an individual is struggling with mental health it is very likely to leak into their relationships. Negatively affecting themself or their partner. Therapy is an important tool to help the relationship remain healthy if this is the case.

And perhaps it is the wording of your first paragraph but it doesn't quite sit right with us.

Both partners being in therapy is healthy and necessary if they need it. It isn't a default requirement for a healthy and responsible system-system relationship. I certainly would not make the assumption that just because someone is a system they need therapy (which to be fair everyone would likely benefit from therapy so *shrugs* I'm kinda splitting hairs here). I also won't say therapy is required, because not everyone can access it and not everyone has a support network.

But I am assuming your use of "system" here is referring to systems who are experiencing high levels of dissociation and CPTSD since you are using alters and "split to protect". Two systems trying to handle their own mental health as well as their partners is going to be incredibly taxing at some point or another. Knowing when you need help while in the relationship is going to be the responsible part. Because at first things may be as smooth as butter and easy and then a bump happens and it can explode in unexpected ways. ✨️ the joys of mental health ✨️

The dangerous part is seeing what your partner struggles with and thinking you can take it on, on top of what you already have on your plate WITHOUT a support system. It could hurt you and your partner very quickly, or even in the long run. Two systems dating who are both Going Through It™ without a support system may be looking at a lot of challenges and rough patches.

I do not think therapy is a requirement for a responsible system relationship. BUT I do think some self-awareness and responsibility of actions and emotions will be required for it to work out. But that is a given for ANY relationship.

It is also very important to understand the unique situation of dating another system. Because this will multiply the usual challenges couples will face and the odds of it happening increases (which is why we call it lite polyamory :P). Communication is going to be KEY. And being informed on how trauma and dissociation can present is going to be very important too! Because how your system presents may not be the same as your partner.

[syscourse-shmiscourse]

“thought we all knew by now that it’s professionally recognized that treating them like actual children is actually anti-recovery and unhealthy.”

To be clear I do believe in what u said about systems being able to choose for themselves if their kids should be treated like actual kids or not but you kinda confused me on this I’m sorry. So like can you give the professional research ur talking about?

We treat our littles like actual kids (once again not saying anyone else has to) so like if that’ll hurt them in the long run I want (a) proof it does so and (b) to not hurt them

Hey anon! While I don't have access to the full article, the abstract pretty much gives you a general idea and you can request the full study if you want to finish it! Plus the blurb of two of the case studies that I found in a different article that was citing this the main study. There's a light mention of suicidal ideation at the end of the first case study. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J229v05n01_02

"Case Example #1: Ms. G is dating an older man who is married. She has tried to break it off countless times, but he always wins her over again by playing to her more endearing childish aspects. He takes her out to a fast-food establishment that provides special meals, each including a toy, for children, and he buys her one of these. By catering to her child alters’ bottomless need for nurturing, he manipulates Ms. G into spending time with him and usually succeeds in engaging in sexual activity with her, reenacting her childhood traumas of being seduced with favors and gifts into having sex with older men. When they have such an encounter, Ms. G regresses, falls into a deep depression, and entertains ideas of suicide."

"Case Example #2: Miss P begins treatment with a new therapist who is known to be experienced in treating DID, and in the first session regresses into a little-girl ego-state and attempts to climb onto her therapist’s lap. When this is not permitted by the therapist, the patient breaks into sobs and says that her other therapist did this and she “needs” to be held in order to heal. The bewildered therapist finds herself facing an enraged adult ego-state who fiercely says, “The kids need to be held, and Dr. So-and-so used to do it. If you aren’t going to hold us, we will find someone else who will.” Miss P storms out of the office."

[sour-not-sweet]

A big thing to keep in mind is you *can* treat them as children. If they *want* that. The anti recovery involved (usually involved in online system spaces) is with treating littles and syskids like children is when you force them to remain in that role. You over control them, and do not give them the chance to heal how *they* need. For some that is going to involve doing things that would not be seen as appropriate for actual children, but is a cornerstone in what the syskid needs, and you as a whole may need to heal or at very least cope. It is a complex subject and has a great deal of nuance. Over protecting children can often backfire. The same is true with system kids.

Edit: Although it is also anti recovery to encourage it to such a degree it hinders you as a whole as well. Much like the stated examples.

[sour-not-sweet]

Let's Learn About How To Use "System"!

This post is going to use a very *good* resource to help the community better understand what a system is, and how it can accurately be used within the plural community outside of CDD systems. There has always been the dictionary definition, but this source breaks it down to understand WHY the definitions are what they are.

My hope is this can help people understand when "system" or "collective" may be more appropriate. I also hope this can help people who believe "system" should remain medical see that logically it can be used in non medical context. But mostly I hope this provides people a good resource for fighting misinformation.

TLDR: There are many types of systems. A system's parts are interrelated and affect the whole. A system is not just a collection of parts.

[Highlighted text is what I considered important. When I use "collective" you can substitute that with your preferred language. When I say "parts" I am not specifically referring to dissociative parts.

I HIGHLY recommend reading through the entire course. But, section 5 is most relevant. Links to the relevant pages are in the section titles.]

Types of Systems:

"Everyone is involved with things called systems – information systems, financial systems, ecological systems, computer systems, education systems; and to this list I can add many things which are often called systems by professionals in a particular field. For example, doctors talk of the nervous system in the body, therapists of the family system to which each of us belongs, engineers of fail-safe systems in a car or power station."

Define it:

"A system is an assembly of components connected together in an organized way."

"The components are affected by being in the system and the behaviour of the system is changed if they leave it."

"The central concept ‘system’ embodies the idea of a set of elements connected together which form a whole, this showing properties which are properties of the whole, rather than properties of its component parts."

"The behaviour of each element has an effect on the behaviour of the whole..."

"The behaviour of the elements and their effects on the whole are interdependent."

Language of Systems:

"If thinking in terms of systems is to be of any use it must involve more than mentally grouping a number of elements together and calling them a system. The whole point is that these elements are interrelated..."

Summary:

System: Interconnecting parts functioning as a whole. Change if you take away pieces or add more pieces. If you cut the system in half you do not get two smaller systems, but a damaged system that will not properly function. The arrangement of the pieces is crucial. The parts are connected and work together.

"Heap": A collection of parts. Essential properties are unchanged whether you add or take away pieces. When you halve a heap, you get two smaller heaps. The arrangement of the pieces is irrelevant. The parts are not connected and can function separately. Its behaviour (if any) depends on its size or on the number of pieces in the heap.

(I would replace "heap" with collective or group personally 😅)

Takeaway

My personal opinion has always been that a "system" when used by plurals, multiples, and adjacent experiences is a way to describe how multiple parts exist together in a singular body. CDD systems and IFS describe medically defined systems. Plural, spiritual, endogenic, willogenic, etc systems describes non medically defined systems.

I also believe system describes a very *specific* way that parts interconnect and affect eachother. It is not just a group of individuals parts. I think *this* is where a LOT of confusion and tension comes from. However, I also do not think as outsiders we can tell someone what is or isn't a system in their life.

But, I also do think people (and the communities) may benefit from separating system and collective more reliably. Plurality is not always a hard line that follows rules, and it may not always fit system or collective. It may also fluctuate. I also think we need to normalize changing language as things fluctuate without claiming people are faking or punishing them for being wrong.

[aloyartz8new]

Your Opinion

Are Willowgenic Systems Valid

sometimes I think I am a system but I don't (think) I have headmates yes sometimes very occasionally I have some memories not doing something. but the thing is I want headmates for a coping skill due to my life long truama but not in a ableist way you know...? Pls someone tell me I am valid!

Moots: @makaversecolon3 @dsharpie @majestydeerakuma @schmitty-schmitstinstein @remsterden @theamazingdigitallarp123 @thatblukirby @beepsparks @xsallysaltsaltx @addiethedragoncat @youdontknowacee @darinatmp @strawberryxex @spacedustthethisuser @propranksterpropaganda @weedleysnumberonefan @linavloger

[sour-not-sweet]

I am not one of your mutuals but I wanted to add some reassurance and information. While you should feel comfortable engaging in willomancy, I'd like to also provide some other alternatives that ALSO work wonderfully for support and trauma work. (Personal companions and support figures are actually very common and encouraged in therapy so there is that to support what you are looking for!)

"System" does not just refer to CDD systems formed from childhood trauma. A system is a description. You cannot will yourself into having a CDD. BUT, you absolutely can will thoughtforms and headmates (or new alters if you do have a CDD) into existence.

For people who are not use to, or just do not like, other people using the word "system" to describe how multiple parts/selves/identities function together they like to treat other forms of plurality as being ableist for their language choice or claim they are outright faking having a CDD. It is very common knowledge at this point that people who are talking about wanting to form a system are not talking about wanting to form a CDD system.

Reference for available options to you under the cut because genuinely, there is no harm in researching and hearing other people's stories and experiences with it. See what would fit what you need best.

Headmates and systems members

Now, if you would like headmates, following willogenic guides like you are considering would definitely do the trick.

There is also the soulbond community. It has gotten a bit confusing in recent years but it has been around for a very long time and should have some good resources to utilize...somewhere.

There is of course the tulpa community as well. However this one is kinda as messy as the soulbond community at the moment. A lot of micro communities and different ways of practicing and beliefs. While they sound similar to willogenics the method of headmate creation is very different, and focuses on different aspects from what I have been told.

Parts

If you are wanting to explore different modes or facets of yourself for support there is IFS and Polyminds.

Polyminds HERE

IFS is the therapy technique revolving around separating and getting to know different internal parts of yourself, typically referred to as an internal family system. There is a lot of resources available since it is a common therapy practice. A simple google search will get ya what you need.

Thoughtforms

Now if you would like to explore a more thoughtform type of companion or support system you can checkout dragonworking, daemonism, imaginancy, or living characters.

Thoughtforms are mental constructs that may or may not be autonomous. (Some consider all headmates to fall under this, I personally use it for when we put conscious effort and focus into their interactions, development, or existence relies on us.)

Dragonworking information can be found HERE

Daemonism has a few places to find resources. On Tumblr my favorites are HERE and HERE

Imaginancy is the practice of being comfortable with having imaginary friends, or non-autonomous thoughtforms, that you treat just as seriously as someone would to a systemmember.

Living characters are autonomous characters that are not soulbonds. I do not know very much, but I would assume they are similar to Muses that a lot of writers and roleplayers get.

[aloyartz8new]

Ohh I see @sour-not-sweet thankyou for the info I think I might have the headmates but for me I don't really disociate but I pretend I am one of my Alters sometimes (mostly in bad situations) and I do have headmates for Support in my head and we go to headmates and talk sometimes is this a Plurality system or even at all?

[sour-not-sweet]

Plural is so ambiguous its kinda for you to decide. It means "more than one". That is the only "requirement" that is needed. Members fronting isn't even required. It is an option in label to use if you think it describes your experience.

A "system" in regards to "being more than one" is typically a group that together performs one or more vital functions and OR a group that forms a unified whole.

If you feel there is a lack of that kind of structure with your headmates then terms like "collective", "crew", and other similar words that represent a group may be a good replacement.

But, if your members are there specifically for support that is a legit support system. So, if you were uncomfortable with declaring "plural system" you could use "plural support system". Specifications never hurt.

Some plurals use system simply because there are multiple identities existing in one body.

There isn't really any way to determine what counts as a system and what doesn't. Saying you are a plural system just clarifies that you are not a CDD system or IFS.

If you "take on" the mannerisms and names of headmates, especially in stressful situations, that sounds a lot like a type of masking to me (my personal opinion). Which is totally a normal experience. I have done this with my daemons before since they do not front nor do we experience dissociation between us. I am sure there are other terms describing this as well that may fit better.

[aloyartz8new]

Your Opinion

Are Willowgenic Systems Valid

sometimes I think I am a system but I don't (think) I have headmates yes sometimes very occasionally I have some memories not doing something. but the thing is I want headmates for a coping skill due to my life long truama but not in a ableist way you know...? Pls someone tell me I am valid!

Moots: @makaversecolon3 @dsharpie @majestydeerakuma @schmitty-schmitstinstein @remsterden @theamazingdigitallarp123 @thatblukirby @beepsparks @xsallysaltsaltx @addiethedragoncat @youdontknowacee @darinatmp @strawberryxex @spacedustthethisuser @propranksterpropaganda @weedleysnumberonefan @linavloger

[sour-not-sweet]

I am not one of your mutuals but I wanted to add some reassurance and information. While you should feel comfortable engaging in willomancy, I'd like to also provide some other alternatives that ALSO work wonderfully for support and trauma work. (Personal companions and support figures are actually very common and encouraged in therapy so there is that to support what you are looking for!)

"System" does not just refer to CDD systems formed from childhood trauma. A system is a description. You cannot will yourself into having a CDD. BUT, you absolutely can will thoughtforms and headmates (or new alters if you do have a CDD) into existence.

For people who are not use to, or just do not like, other people using the word "system" to describe how multiple parts/selves/identities function together they like to treat other forms of plurality as being ableist for their language choice or claim they are outright faking having a CDD. It is very common knowledge at this point that people who are talking about wanting to form a system are not talking about wanting to form a CDD system.

Reference for available options to you under the cut because genuinely, there is no harm in researching and hearing other people's stories and experiences with it. See what would fit what you need best.

Headmates and systems members

Now, if you would like headmates, following willogenic guides like you are considering would definitely do the trick.

There is also the soulbond community. It has gotten a bit confusing in recent years but it has been around for a very long time and should have some good resources to utilize...somewhere.

There is of course the tulpa community as well. However this one is kinda as messy as the soulbond community at the moment. A lot of micro communities and different ways of practicing and beliefs. While they sound similar to willogenics the method of headmate creation is very different, and focuses on different aspects from what I have been told.

Parts

If you are wanting to explore different modes or facets of yourself for support there is IFS and Polyminds.

Polyminds HERE

IFS is the therapy technique revolving around separating and getting to know different internal parts of yourself, typically referred to as an internal family system. There is a lot of resources available since it is a common therapy practice. A simple google search will get ya what you need.

Thoughtforms

Now if you would like to explore a more thoughtform type of companion or support system you can checkout dragonworking, daemonism, imaginancy, or living characters.

Thoughtforms are mental constructs that may or may not be autonomous. (Some consider all headmates to fall under this, I personally use it for when we put conscious effort and focus into their interactions, development, or existence relies on us.)

Dragonworking information can be found HERE

Daemonism has a few places to find resources. On Tumblr my favorites are HERE and HERE

Imaginancy is the practice of being comfortable with having imaginary friends, or non-autonomous thoughtforms, that you treat just as seriously as someone would to a systemmember.

Living characters are autonomous characters that are not soulbonds. I do not know very much, but I would assume they are similar to Muses that a lot of writers and roleplayers get.

[hazedxg0]

I tend to avoid online spaces but this specific thing has been bothering me for a long time.

OSDDID spaces online present their experiences very identity-first and everyone always seems to have personal relationships with their alters, like they are their friends or family.

I don't feel connected to them at all, spare for two. Not only this but I don't see them as people either. Just me in different forms stuck in different periods. They still have different "selves": different interests, dislikes, mannerisms, behaviors, and so on, but I still don't see them as "people". I think when it comes down to it I see them purely as symptoms and nothing else. It's taken me a long time to even call them alters at all.

Knowing I have DID at all terrified me, but to see online OSDDID spaces not represent how I experience this makes it all the more lonely.

Yeah, it's pretty common to experience DID in the way you've described. Not to say that alters having relationships with each other or viewing themselves as "separate people" isn't possible, because it definitely does happen. But people online have a tendency to only discuss DID in terms of its most distinct and obvious forms, when in actuality the majority of DID cases present as more subtle and covert.

It's actually healthier not to view alters as separate people, because objectively speaking they aren't and those feelings of separation only reinforce the disorder. It's why the theory of structural dissociation mentions several times that clinicians should not treat alters as separate people and needs to emphasize them as parts of a whole, otherwise the person won't be able to achieve any degree of integration.

I don't mind people acknowledging the fact that alters can believe themselves to be very separate, I take issue with how this presentation is treated as if it's the one true way to experience DID. And with how people insist that such heavy dissociation is actually healthy and doesn't need to be worked on. It very much crosses the line into treating DID like an identity label instead of a serious mental illness, which isn't conducive to anyone's recovery.

And the end result of all of this is that people with the most common presentations of DID do not feel understood within what is supposed to be their own community, which is a shame.

[circularlines]

Hey Anon! I just wanted to offer a somewhat different perspective, as someone who’s made a lot of progress in recovery.

When I started therapy, I was firmly treating my parts as solely parts of one whole. They had distinct selves, but they were also just symptoms of my trauma — nothing more. The end goal was for them to solidify into one identity, which was scary since I didn’t know anything else, but isn’t that what being parts of a whole meant?

It worked for us for awhile, but distinctly, we hit a barrier when it came to distancing those parts from their trauma. The ones who viewed themselves more as people had a far easier time, because they were people, capable of growth and change. Not just a symptom or a brain chemistry issue — real breathing people with lives of their own, desires, wants, etc. They just happened to share their body.

One of the parts who struggled the most was our protector, who was stuck distinctly in the mentality that he had to anticipate everything in order to protect us. What helped him grow from that mentality was treating himself with more personhood, acknowledging he could be a person. He developed hobbies and desires separate from the others, as well as hobbies along with the others.

The ISSTD guidelines impress upon therapists and mental healthcare professionals that, while it’s essential that patients don’t believe themselves to be fully separate people — people as in bodies that have no impact on the others — it’s equally essential to use the terminology that the patient most relates to. This is to help improve dissociation and build trust with the therapist, which is required for stabilization before the trauma-processing and integration phases.

As someone in the integration phase of therapy, I think it’s vital for you to develop your own outlook on your system and what labels you use. Maybe being parts of a whole suits you the best!! Maybe seeing them as people will help instead. There’s no harm in trying what you can to help lessen the barriers between your parts. Whatever works, works.

[sour-not-sweet]

Anon, I would also love to see more people sharing experiences like yours.

But Haze , no one can say it is healthier to treats alters as parts OR separate individuals. Neither is more healthy than the other. It is going to depend on the person/system and what they need and what benefits them best in order to heal without causing distress and roadblocks.

As Sonnet said, professionals are encouraged to use the terminology their patients use. If they see their alters as separate people they should be respecting this and adapting their approach. The reminder to professionals about alters not being individuals is to make sure they understand they need to push home to their patient that they share a singular body and in turn a singular life. The actions, relationships, and choices of one will affect the others. That is what it is saying.

Maybe at one point the idea of alters being only parts and final fusion was the only way you could treat CDDs was the staple at the time. But as more time has passed, and more cases worked with (and people with CDDs have also entered the medical field) it became very apparent that this was faulty and a new approach was encouraged.

Integration is a lot of things, and it can happen in many ways. For some it is seeing themselves as all parts to one whole and not as separate people. Breaking down the divisions between the parts so everything flows together as one with no interuptions. For others it is staying as individuals who work as a team and collaborate to get to the same seamless flow and functionality. It could be something in-between or something else entirely. This is also why I have started to view final fusion and thriving multiplicity as a sliding bar and not an all or nothing end to living with a CDD.

While I agree there is often misunderstandings and misinformation of what dissociation and CDDs are within the community, stating there is only one healthy way be to a system or one proper way towards recovery is also spreading misunderstanding about the disorder. I also agree some people may be pushing themselves further into trouble, but that is ONLY because they do not always see other options available to them. They may not have a reliable support system or a professional to help them when things go overboard. It isn't the choice of being individuals, or the dissociation that sometimes comes with it, that is necessarily the bad thing in this scenario. It is that they do not understand themselves, their system, or their mental health enough to take all factors into play (and as an outside party neither can we). And truthfully, everyone is allowed to take that risk. That is their choice, their means of finding out what works or doesn't.

As a community it isn't our job to say what someone should or shouldn't do just because we think its best or has been personally beneficial. The reason I would love to see more pwCDDs that do not see themselves, or work, as individuals share their experiences is because then more of us would understand both sides of the coin (plus you deserve the chance to share your experiences). We could see someone struggling and suggest a different route. People encourage and support their own experiences, and as a community I think it is important to understand that our way of existing and healing isnt going to work for everyone. What is safe for us isn't guaranteed to be safe for another. What we do to integrate, handle dissociation, dysphoria, trauma, etc isn't going to be the same for everyone.

A lot of professionals keep to what they know. Sometimes this means they will not adapt to their patient's needs. But just because they stick to one way of doing something does not mean that is the right or only way.

[roycohn]

stop saying "gen z brought back bush-era purity politics" i grew up in the bush era and even then people weren't saying that you're a sex addict for having boring marital sexual congress in the same house as your children. this is just plain unhinged

[prof-grace-aspen]

Literally almost every millennial I know has a memory of accidentally walking in on their parents or hearing their parents having sex. It's fucking normal. Human beings have sex. Your parents fuck. Get over it. Being weird about it isn't healthy.

[whatsnewalycat]

I really loved Robert Evans’s response to this

[alittlemorethanasonnet]

Also, as someone who has a LOT of “weird” trauma experiences:

Trauma is the impact, not the event.

If you walk in on your parents and it impacts you really negatively… and then your parents go, “oh shit, my bad, let’s comfort you and reassure you,” and you get the support you need? You probably will not have Lifelong Severe Trauma Reactions over it.

Case in point: me. I walked in on my parents once. It was fine. It freaked me out because I thought my dad was having a seizure again. Mom and Dad explained it was fine, I went back to bed, and years later I realized they’d been fucking.

These are the same people who did hurt me, really badly, to the point that I developed a severe trauma-based disorder about it.

Just seeing something unpleasant isn’t trauma. Trauma is what you took away from the event and how supported you were afterwards.

[sour-not-sweet]

TLDR; Parents having sex while the kids are home isn't going to traumatize them. You not being a safe individual to receive support from WILL likely lead to trauma.

I HAVE FEELINGS ABOUT THIS APPARENTLY

If your kid walks in on you and you handle it like adults they will be fine.

If your kid hears you having sex and is scared because they do not understand, and they are TOO SCARED to come to you for reassurance THAT shows they are already dealing with trauma and are likely slipping into a trauma response as they listen to this scary thing they don't understand. You have already traumatized your child well before you got caught having sex. The sex sounds are scary. But when coming to you to find out if everything is okay is even scarier you end up with a child who's fear is being amplified by another and now the event becomes traumatic because their nervous system and emotions have been blasted all the while receiving ZERO support during or afterwards and likely won't even bring it up later.

Yeah a scenario like that is going to have a fucking awful impact. And yes, yes this from personal experience.

Also, you don't have to explain then and there! If you find out later and reassure them and take their reaction and feelings over the event seriously you'll likely soothe over any lingering damage. But again, the real issue you should address when you do find out that your kid was THAT distressed and didn't come to you is figuring out WHY they didn't feel safe and how to fix it. And maybe it wasn't even that you are not a safe person! Maybe facing what was happening was just genuinely too scary to deal with so they stayed where they felt safe. Congrats, you are safe parent but you still need to give the proper support they need now that you know and still find a solution to help them not feel so helpless in future situations.

There will always be uncomfortable, scary events and unknowns. Growing up is full of it. Hell, even animals go through this and it is know as a "fear period". The important thing is making sure your kids gets the proper support when these new situations arise.

But also like I KNOW YOU BE WATCHING MOVIES OR TV SHOWS WITH SEX IN IT AND OTHER SCREAMY ASS MEDIA WITH YOUR KIDS IN THE HOUSE.

Don't go demonizing parents having sex when we flood kids with that shit anyway and say its fine because they are in their room and not watching. They hear that shit too and yeah it can be traumatizing without context and support because the parents are busy watching the scary thing and don't realize their child is suffering quietly in their room. And don't fool yourself into thinking the kid is asleep so its fine.

But ultimately this is STILL a communication issue. If you are watching something that make your kid upset to listen to they should be able to come to you for support. Same if they walk in on an inappropriate or brutal scene. Pause that movie, give the kid a hug, watch it with headphones if its too much for them. Even with infants. If you notice they are upset after you have sex, go comfort that poor thing! Like... there is no reason to say everyone is willfully traumatizing their kid by having sex in the same house.

Bah

Also as a last funny note two of my dogs get anxious as fuck because they don't understand. So, should I send my dogs away from the house when I want to bone? Spend money on motels just so they don't think we are fighting? No. I can't talk to my dogs in a meaningful way that will help them understand everything is okay. You CAN talk to your kids. But also, my dogs are definitely not traumatized by it. 🤣

[education-system]

The thing about I told x about endogenics and they agreed with me arguments is that typically both sides describe endogenics to those who don't know about them in a different way. And the way they are described can have an impact on someone elses opinion. Its common for those who are systems joining the community even to become anti-endo if they learn about endogenics through anti-endo definitions and pro-endo if they learn about them through pro-endo definitions.

And the same goes for therapists as both sides base their opinion on endogenics in real tangible facts about complex dissociative disorders that those who are educated in the field but not educated on endogenics could easily agree with. Both "endogenics are those who fake DID because they claim to have the disorder without trauma," and "endogenics are those who recognize they don't have a complex dissociative disorder as they experience their parts as more separate than typical for reasons other than trauma," makes sense to someone in the field because both recognize that you can't have CDDs without trauma. The second shouldn't be seen as weird to anyone in the field as part of learning about presentations of a disorder is learning about how parts of it may show up in similar ways outside of the disorder. Both are extremely easy for trauma and dissociation specialists to agree with if that is their only context for the community.

So yes of course people are getting agreement from their therapists about endogenics on both sides. Because neither side is making arguments that are out there bs from the perspective of the current science and the therapist will only know what you tell them if they haven't done research into endogenics as it is a separate field of research to that of the research on CDDs.

[im0nline]

hi. gonna be annoying here but I’m tired of seeing it.

Alters from DID/OSDD systems ARE the same as alters from Endogenic systems.

Endogenic systems are more commonly non-disordered because they didn’t form to cope in unhealthy ways. Traumagenic systems are more commonly disordered, like DID, OSDD, etc, because they formed to cope in unhealthy ways.

That does not mean Endogenic systems are a completely different thing from DID/OSDD, it only means they’re missing the one most important criterion of DID: Causing harm to oneself or those around you (which is the one most important criterion of every single disorder in the DSM/ICD. That’s what defines a ”disorder”.)

Whether you’re traumagenic or endogenic, so long your plurality is causing you harm, you have a CDD, and if not, then you don’t.

Sincerely, your medically recognised endogenously formed DID system (yes, the endogenic part is also recognised)

[sour-not-sweet]

I am going to kindly ask you to take the time to learn what being disordered actually entails. I understand you are trying to defend endogenic plurality but you are approaching this from an incredibly insensitive and misinformed perspective. You are harming CDD and traumagenic systems, and throwing disordered endogenic systems under the bus.

The criteria for a disorder is:

severely disrupt daily life

The defining traits of a mental disorder is:

significant disturbance in an individual’s cognition, emotional regulation, or behaviour

ADHD and autism are considered developmental disorders. Are you really saying that people with ADHD or autism are a danger to themselves and others?

Not all disorders are the same, and they definitely are NOT a disorder because the person is at risk or coping in unhealthy ways.

There is a separate risk assessment that is done for ALL disorders because *everyone* is at risk, but mental and physical health increases these risks exponentially. If you are seeking help from a professional it is part of their job to do a risk assessment.

Complex dissociative disorders are the outcome of a continously traumatic situation. For some this is incredibly distressing (and unhealthy) because their symptoms ARE disrupting and influencing their quality of life. For others it is harmonious. For many it is an unknown factor that does not impact their life in notable ways and may never seek a diagnosis because of it. They may fall under the needed criteria or a diagnosis, or they may not. The diagnosis is a means of organizing symptoms to be able to provide a treatment plan. That is it.

It is not uncommon for endogenic systems to form from unhealthy coping mechanisms as well. Maladaptive daydreaming can absolutely be an unhealthy coping mechanism. Reality shifting can absolutely be an unhealthy coping mechanism. Isolation from others and only wanting interaction with headmates is an unhealthy coping mechanism. Creating a partner instead of seeking out an external partner can absolutely be an unhealthy coping mechanisms. This cannot be the defining difference between an endogenic system and a traumagenic system. Endogenic systems are just as likely to be as disordered as any CDD system. They can be dealing with trauma, varying disorders, and unhealthy coping mechanisms.

The differences between a CDD/traumagenic system and an endogenic system is that their plurality was caused by other reasons than *trauma*. That is it. It is not because they are more likely to be healthy. It is not because they do not fit a diagnosis criteria. It is certainly not because they are not a harm to themselves or others.

This is such a wild, and ignorant take.

Also HERE is the DSM5s criteria

Include at least two or more distinct personalities

Each personality varies in behavior, sense of consciousness, memory, and perception of the outside world.

Persons with DID experience amnesia, distinct gaps in memory, and recollections of daily and traumatic events.

They cannot be directly related to substance use or part of cultural norms or practices.

Importantly, these symptoms must cause a notable lack of daily functioning.

Where does it say these people must be a risk factor? Where does it say it is formed from unhealthy coping?

CDDs ars a psychobiological response to traumas suffered in a specific time window, a developmental disorder, a dissociative disorder, a complex post traumatic stress disorder, and many other comradery disorders.

Also, if trauma is not needed to be present for diagnosis than an endogenic system can absolutely be diagnosed with a CDD if their doctor thinks they meet all other criteria and show obvious signs of being disordered! Endogenic and traumagenic are identity labels. CDDs are medical labels, but many also use them as identity labels.

Alters are medical based. Keeping them medical based is NOT invalidating non CDD systems. It is an important label used to describe a VERY specific type of system member who's tied heavily to CDD origins.

[im0nline]

Hi. I’m not sure what I phrased wrong to make you so aggressive but you’ve essentially said exactly what I said. My vocabulary isn’t huge, and English is also not my first language.

When I said harm I meant distressing to yourself, a problem/issue to yourself, etc. of course if you’re at risk of harming yourself that’s a very different story. When I said that it’s a criterion I didn’t mean it was literally in the 5 or so criterion of the disorder itself, but more like it’s a criterion of disorders overall, and without it you wouldn’t be disordered.

When I said ”unhealthy coping” I meant that as a more concise way to say the following: Traumagenic systems are more often than not disordered systems because their fundamental building block of plurality is unstable, that being trauma. And on the other hand, Endogenic systems are often non-disordered because their building block is more stable. Neither is exclusive, both may very well be either non-disordered or disordered. We are a medically recognised disordered endogenic system. We are treated for DID, and our psychologist agrees our origin is endogenic.

You seem to be reading into my usage of words a lot. Again, English isn’t my first language and I have a limited vocabulary due to varying learning disabilities. I ask you try and imagine what I could have possibly meant instead, as the most optimistic assumption is usually the right one.

How can I rephrase what I said to sound the way I intended? Thank you

[sour-not-sweet]

Your response is what should be your original post. I HIGHLY recommend you rephrase your oginal post to match.

There was no other possible way to read into what you wrote. English not being your first language may explain why you chose the wording you did, but you also gotta understand that on its own there is no other way to interpret your original post to mean what you explained in your response.

I will not be the only blog to take what you put down as litteral. Keep that in mind. /genuine

[im0nline]

hi. gonna be annoying here but I’m tired of seeing it.

Alters from DID/OSDD systems ARE the same as alters from Endogenic systems.

Endogenic systems are more commonly non-disordered because they didn’t form to cope in unhealthy ways. Traumagenic systems are more commonly disordered, like DID, OSDD, etc, because they formed to cope in unhealthy ways.

That does not mean Endogenic systems are a completely different thing from DID/OSDD, it only means they’re missing the one most important criterion of DID: Causing harm to oneself or those around you (which is the one most important criterion of every single disorder in the DSM/ICD. That’s what defines a ”disorder”.)

Whether you’re traumagenic or endogenic, so long your plurality is causing you harm, you have a CDD, and if not, then you don’t.

Sincerely, your medically recognised endogenously formed DID system (yes, the endogenic part is also recognised)

[sour-not-sweet]

I am going to kindly ask you to take the time to learn what being disordered actually entails. I understand you are trying to defend endogenic plurality but you are approaching this from an incredibly insensitive and misinformed perspective. You are harming CDD and traumagenic systems, and throwing disordered endogenic systems under the bus.

The criteria for a disorder is:

severely disrupt daily life

The defining traits of a mental disorder is:

significant disturbance in an individual’s cognition, emotional regulation, or behaviour

ADHD and autism are considered developmental disorders. Are you really saying that people with ADHD or autism are a danger to themselves and others?

Not all disorders are the same, and they definitely are NOT a disorder because the person is at risk or coping in unhealthy ways.

There is a separate risk assessment that is done for ALL disorders because *everyone* is at risk, but mental and physical health increases these risks exponentially. If you are seeking help from a professional it is part of their job to do a risk assessment.

Complex dissociative disorders are the outcome of a continously traumatic situation. For some this is incredibly distressing (and unhealthy) because their symptoms ARE disrupting and influencing their quality of life. For others it is harmonious. For many it is an unknown factor that does not impact their life in notable ways and may never seek a diagnosis because of it. They may fall under the needed criteria for a diagnosis, or they may not. The diagnosis is a means of organizing symptoms to be able to provide a treatment plan. That is it.

It is not uncommon for endogenic systems to form from unhealthy coping mechanisms as well. Maladaptive daydreaming can absolutely be an unhealthy coping mechanism. Reality shifting can absolutely be an unhealthy coping mechanism. Isolation from others and only wanting interaction with headmates is an unhealthy coping mechanism. Creating a partner instead of seeking out an external partner can absolutely be an unhealthy coping mechanisms. This cannot be the defining difference between an endogenic system and a traumagenic system. Endogenic systems are just as likely to be as disordered as any CDD system. They can be dealing with trauma, varying disorders, and unhealthy coping mechanisms.

The differences between a CDD/traumagenic system and an endogenic system is that their plurality was caused by other reasons than *trauma*. That is it. It is not because they are more likely to be healthy. It is not because they do not fit a diagnosis criteria. It is certainly not because they are not a harm to themselves or others.

This is such a wild, and ignorant take.

Also HERE is the DSM5s criteria

Include at least two or more distinct personalities

Each personality varies in behavior, sense of consciousness, memory, and perception of the outside world.

Persons with DID experience amnesia, distinct gaps in memory, and recollections of daily and traumatic events.

They cannot be directly related to substance use or part of cultural norms or practices.

Importantly, these symptoms must cause a notable lack of daily functioning.

Where does it say these people must be a risk factor? Where does it say it is formed from unhealthy coping?

CDDs are a response to traumas suffered in a specific time window, a developmental disorder, a dissociative disorder, a complex post traumatic stress disorder, and many other comradery disorders.

Also, if trauma is not needed to be present for diagnosis than an endogenic system can absolutely be diagnosed with a CDD if their doctor thinks they meet all other criteria and show obvious signs of being disordered! Endogenic and traumagenic are identity labels. CDDs are medical labels, but many also use them as identity labels.

Alters are medical based. Keeping them medical based is NOT invalidating non CDD systems. It is an important label used to describe a VERY specific type of system member who's tied heavily to CDD origins.

[sour-not-sweet]

Polyminds from an outside perspective

I do not practice or label myself as polymind. However, I do follow the tags. I am learning passively from what I have seen on tumblr these past recent months. This is what I have learned.

Polyminds are not copying anything from what I have come to observe, and they are trying to create their own footprint, away from current typical plural/CDD system spaces. Something that is harder to do now, especially when starting with such a small footprint. There is some cultural similarities with terms, flags, and finding roles/functions, and origin terms with plural spaces. But this is not a unique overlap. So many communities have these same creative outlets, and means of trying to create a written history/guide, and connecting with eachother.

To me, polymindance it is a nuaced mix of parts, modes, masks, self-states, and thoughtforms.

It is not a system unless it functions as one and someone feels it is accurate for their experience. Because "system" can describe many things without brining in plural systemhood.

Polymindance can be a very unified experience for those who's mindsets never interact with eachother, but are aware of their individual existence and how they function together.

It can be a very separated experience. An advanced method of self-talk, self-care, and self-awareness. It can be a way to conceptualize and interact with the different masks you wear.

It can be a lot of things that are neither plural nor a CDD. Perhaps it is median but to the left. Parts work expanding outside of the common therapy techniques? Masking made fun? Living characters tied to specific parts of your identity? Daemon-like but only how they are part of you? So many possibilities, and perhaps not even related to anything here.

Anyway. We once thought it was endogenic plurality but made clean for anti-endos. We were confused on why a new term needed to be made for an experience that looked so similar to other things we already closely understood or related to.

But now, we get it. Sometimes it does look the same, but it's not. This is a unique way of labeling something that is already hard to explain perfectly. Things involving the mind, personality states, and how thoughts work will always be...

Replace time with "the mind" and you get "wibbly-wobbly, mindey-wimey... stuff"

[firelight-syscourse]

🥀 Alter Ages 🥀

For the sake of this post Littles are 12-, Middles are 13-17, Adults are 18+, Ageless depends on their maturity level/look I guess?

Some people's definitions of these terms change, but this will be mine

We tend to go by body age first, then alter age. If your body is an adult you will be allowed into adult spaces, however we do not allow littles or middles in the adult spaces. They are children and we have adult content in those spaces

They are children and shouldn't be exposed to that sort of stuff, no matter how "mature" they are or what memories they hold in our opinion

If you're a minor bodied system you won't be allowed in bodily adult spaces as that is your body age, no matter if you have adult alters as you are again, a minor. Minors once again shouldn't be exposed to adult content

Littles/middles/minors shouldn't be in relationships with any adults, bodily or alter wise, and vice versa

However, we also know that some littles don't want to be treated like littles. We have some alters like that as well. But, not treating them like a little does not mean you should allow them to look at adult content or date adults. They just don't want to be babied like other littles may want to be and that is okay. You can talk to them like another person

We tend to continue to try and censor ourselves but it isn't always necessary

Just do be very careful in spaces with littles as some people will take advantage of this/them for these beliefs

[sour-not-sweet]

Is this your system's rule for syskids in your system, that members are expected to adhere to and respect?

Or

Are you saying that every system should do this? Are you claiming a moral or protective failing of other systems who do not follow this kind behavior towards their syskids? That the way a syskid needs to heal should not be considered if it is an adult situation, like having a relationship or being sexual?

Because these are two very important distinctions

[firelight-syscourse]

None of that was stated within my post. It is up to each system how they allow littles to interact with spheres and we know that

However, we do find it difficult to interact with systems who allow their littles to interact with adult content/areas especially when the space says no littles. Our view is littles are still children and children should not be exposed to adult spaces/content

I am not and will not call anything a moral failing of anyone as morality is very dependant on how you were raised and your view on the world

People also heal differently and outside of very extreme situations, I cannot speak on how someone heals. That is between them, their system, their therapist, and those close to them

[sour-not-sweet]

I asked because it was not clear in your post and it felt very broad and that you were speaking to how other systems should behave.

The moral failing part was because it is common for people who say syskids should be treated as children to attack others for not treating them exactly like bodied children. It was a generalized question, geared up and ready to discuss such topics if that WAS something you believed. Sorry, I see how that looks like I was stating that was what you felt and not just a general question.

Also I agree, if a space says no syskids (even if that does not match the systems beliefs) the rules of that space should be adhered to. Ideally places would be willing to discuss allowances for the littles and syskids who are capable of handling adult content and know how to conduct themselves around adults who are wanting a place away from children instead of making a full ban. But, this is a nuanced situation that most moderators do not want to handle on top of their other duties.

But I also have a genuine question. I am curious how you can rationalize the differences in systems and healing and still hold the belief that syskids should not be allowed in adult spaces or view adult content? This is something we have a hard time grasping. To believe syskids *should* be treated a specific way directly contradicts the acceptance of systems being allowed their differences.

[firelight-syscourse]

🥀 Alter Ages 🥀

For the sake of this post Littles are 12-, Middles are 13-17, Adults are 18+, Ageless depends on their maturity level/look I guess?

Some people's definitions of these terms change, but this will be mine

We tend to go by body age first, then alter age. If your body is an adult you will be allowed into adult spaces, however we do not allow littles or middles in the adult spaces. They are children and we have adult content in those spaces

They are children and shouldn't be exposed to that sort of stuff, no matter how "mature" they are or what memories they hold in our opinion

If you're a minor bodied system you won't be allowed in bodily adult spaces as that is your body age, no matter if you have adult alters as you are again, a minor. Minors once again shouldn't be exposed to adult content

Littles/middles/minors shouldn't be in relationships with any adults, bodily or alter wise, and vice versa

However, we also know that some littles don't want to be treated like littles. We have some alters like that as well. But, not treating them like a little does not mean you should allow them to look at adult content or date adults. They just don't want to be babied like other littles may want to be and that is okay. You can talk to them like another person

We tend to continue to try and censor ourselves but it isn't always necessary

Just do be very careful in spaces with littles as some people will take advantage of this/them for these beliefs

[sour-not-sweet]

Is this your system's rule for syskids in your system, that members are expected to adhere to and respect?

Or

Are you saying that every system should do this? Are you claiming a moral or protective failing of other systems who do not follow this kind behavior towards their syskids? That the way a syskid needs to heal should not be considered if it is an adult situation, like having a relationship or being sexual?

Because these are two very important distinctions

[sour-not-sweet]

Solution to the Bot Plague (and general solution for filtered content)

As of right now, there is no solution for this if you use the mobile app version of Tumblr.

BUT, if you use the web version, including on mobile, I have a solution.

Step 1

Add the first part of the bot name/keyword to your "filtered post content" list. You will have to update the list as needed.

Step 2

Download XKit Rewritten

Firefox

Chrome

Step 3

Go to extension settings and select the "Tweaks" category and choose either "use slim layout for filtered post" or "hide filtered posts entirely"

Enjoy

I cannot vouch for how bug free this extension is. But, for a clean dashboard I am in love.

[sour-not-sweet]

OH! Important discovery!

The filtered content does not work on mural mode, its gotta be the single posts scroll layout.

[sour-not-sweet]

as soon as the whiny bot maker sees your suggested fix she WILL change the blog names to something that can’t be blocked like that. keysmashes or something.

Well, she is also just as likely to spam the other suggested temporary tags so *shrugs*

Syscourse can't get much more broken.

At least this is also a way to use Tumblr that keeps your dash clear for other browsing purposes. Even if it doesn't fix syscourse.

Because being able to browse the DID OSDD tags without anti endo filtered posts taking up space has been a breath of fresh air.

[sour-not-sweet]

Solution to the Bot Plague (and general solution for filtered content)

As of right now, there is no solution for this if you use the mobile app version of Tumblr.

BUT, if you use the web version, including on mobile, I have a solution.

Step 1

Add the first part of the bot name/keyword to your "filtered post content" list. You will have to update the list as needed.

Step 2

Download XKit Rewritten

Firefox

Chrome

Step 3

Go to extension settings and select the "Tweaks" category and choose either "use slim layout for filtered post" or "hide filtered posts entirely"

Enjoy

I cannot vouch for how bug free this extension is. But, for a clean dashboard I am in love. Edit: The filtered post features don't work for the collage/mural whatever its called dashboard layout. It has to be the single post scroll dashboard layout.