I bring a very "Jason Todd was totally justified in every 'bad' thing he ever did and it would be more than fair for him to never really form a relationship with any of the batfamily, especially not Bruce" vibe to the function that people really don't like
What happened on the balcony with Jason and Felipe Garzonas is ambiguous, we do not know what happened. These are the last three pages of 'The Diplomat's Son' as you can see we (and Batman) don't get to see what actually happened, all we know is Jason came down and Felipe fell. This is intentional, because it's not about if Jason pushed him or if he fell.
Batman #425
"How could I continue on with Jason as my partner?"
It's about whether or not Bruce can TRUST Jason as Robin.
The issue after this starts 'Death In The Family', where Bruce takes Jason off active duty because he's becoming a danger to himself.
Batman #426, Death In The Family.
Then obviously we know what happens next.
I see so many people say Jason killed Felipe Garzonas and I don't think they got the point. We don't know for sure! For you to say that Jason killed Felipe is to not trust Jason.
Gotham Knights #43, Knights Passed, Part One: Batgirl & Robin
Gotham Knights expands on this and point blank tells you Bruce doesn’t trust Jason.
“He let Felipe Garzonas fall to his death.”
The choice to say Jason “let” felipe fall to his death implies that Jason allowed
Let’s relook at the definition of let.
to allow somebody to do something or something to happen without trying to stop it
Basically the perceived lack of inaction is enough to warrant condemnation according to Bruce. That Jason, who saved his father’s murderer, had the capacity to save Garzonas and failed to act.
Notice how he says he wants to believe his son is a killer, and he can’t.
He thinks his son is a killer is fine letting him run around after more criminals, as long as he gets someone to babysit and be his morality chain, as well as give her review on Jason’s character.
Neither we nor Bruce knows the truth of the matter, only Jason. Yet both Bruce and the narrative had decided Jason is a murderer.
The reason that I don't enjoy the fics where Bruce apologizes and makes next to minimal changes in order to accomodate Jason and still behaves the same while Jason forgives him and has to forget his hurt and morals to be part of the so called batfamily is because it is TRUE.
Jason does not hold the amount of resentment towards his parental figures as much as he should. This dude forgave Sheila JUST AFTER HE DIED BECAUSE OF HER.
His self-esteem is so low that you'd have to jump into Tartarus to find it.
That's why I want him to put himself first,leave the family and do something just for himself.
For me, Jason symbolises a lot of people especially women that are expected to forgive the person that has hurt them the instant they ask for it and that do forgive them (not that it's a bad thing) or feel/are made to feel guilty for not forgiving (as for some reason it symbolises letting go and doing the bare minimum is always rewarded and the abusers should be forgiven just because they apologized)
Wanting revenge and holding resentment is such a taboo concept that I can't help but want something different to happen in my favourite character's story.
so yeah- Jason should put himself first if the others are never gonna do that. I love him too much to be aware that him and the bats can never be a family.
Jason is either full of love or full of hope and if I hear another person says "full of rage" another time I'd scream so loud I could wake a whole cemetery up.
“The appeal of Jason Todd is that he is an asshole.”
Honestly, I’ve heard this argument before, and I just brushed it off because it seemed completely… absurd and baseless to me. It didn’t even make me angry, you know? It was more like… confused, baffled, and disappointed? It’s like hearing someone say, “The appeal of Batman is that he’s super friendly and emotionally open.” Like.
I don’t know, I feel like that is the niche DC and the stories usually assign to Jason, but that’s exactly why it feels so forced. The more I read, the more forced it seems to cast Jason in the role of the “asshole.” But that’s just my take. Just my own thoughts. If I had to pick, the comic that most clearly pigeonholes him as an “asshole” is probably Countdown. It’s funny, though, because at the same time, that story portrays him as an asshole in the most superficial way I’ve ever seen.
Basically, any “asshole” move Jason pulls feels half-hearted. He’s all bark and no bite. Sure, he says some nasty things now and then. He’s got a bit of an attitude. But he doesn’t actually do anything to justify everyone hating his guts. Calling Jason an “asshole” in Countdown feels like a stretch; it’s more like he’s “kind of a jerk” or “a bit of a pain in the ass.” Not to mention, he’s just a kid in that story, while the other heroes are all much older. Yet, for some reason, everyone hates him with such intensity.
I don’t know, it just feels out of proportion to me. Generally speaking, the term "asshole" usually refers to people who are arrogant, unlikable, and morally questionable. The kind who say nasty things, provoke others, act haughtily, and are universally disliked. It’s hard to slot this type into a standard character archetype; they are clearly distinct from the typical "villain," yet calling them a "third-rate villain" would be giving them too much credit. They seem to occupy their own separate category: the "supporting character with an asshole personality." The most recent example that comes to mind is Flash from the Spiderman movies ig? He constantly bullied and targeted Peter in the early installments, whereas the unlikability of Jason in Countdown felt truly generic and wasn't really directed at anyone in particular. Countdown was an incredibly superficial, lazy attempt to cast Jason in the "asshole" mold. Ultimately, he didn't do anything particularly egregious from start to finish, yet everyone hated him to an absurd degree. It baffles me.
I think this is the main issue I have with Countdown. Clearly, both the narrative and Jason himself were trying to position him as an "asshole" within the story. I’m not sure what significance that held for the Countdown plot itself, but regarding Jason, I found it interesting: he played the asshole because that was exactly how the story— and the other characters—expected him to behave. The story assigned him that role, and he played into it. People expected him to be an asshole, so why not? He gave them exactly what they expected. It might seem a bit confusing, but honestly, if you decide someone is a terrible, unpleasant, and total asshole, chances are they’ll treat you exactly the way you expect—regardless of whether they’re actually like that or not.
The frustrating part here is that both the effort put into Jason’s character and the narrative arc turning him into an asshole feel incredibly superficial and shallow. Jason isn't actually "an asshole"; he just maintains a superficial "asshole" veneer, using an unpleasant attitude and harsh words. But that’s the extent of it. And clearly, he doesn't even have to try very hard, because people immediately latch onto that surface-level persona and instantly hate him. It’s a classic case of… subliminal? A self-fulfilling prophecy? Something like that. That "I knew this guy was insufferable" kind of vibe.
I mean, if DC really wanted to position him as an asshole, they should have done it right. If they wanted to convince us that he’s such a jerk that it makes sense for everyone, every single superhero, to hate him, they needed to include at least the following elements:
Harsh language. Basic-level insults. Calling people "morons" or "losers."
Harsh language. Truly harsh language. The character constantly twisting the knife in the protagonist's emotional wounds. Repeatedly saying the exact things the protagonist doesn't want to hear. Reminding them of their most regretted mistakes. Saying things that provoke such a strong reaction that the protagonist grows to loathe them. Genuinely loathe them, and for that hatred to be completely justified.
A basic tendency toward violence.
At least a baseline level of questionable morality.
Scumbag behavior at a basic level.
Scumbag behavior that violates all moral—or even legal—standards. (Characters defined as "scumbags" tend to lean more toward violating moral standards, whereas villains lean slightly more toward violating the law.)
Backstabbing teammates. Killing pigs, kidnapping children, pushing an old woman into the sea, and deceiving everyone. Truly despicable actions that inflict harm on others.
An utter lack of remorse. This is crucial. In fact, the "scumbag" character should be arrogant, self-satisfied, or even gleeful about their actions, mocking the heroes.
Everyone hates them.
To some extent, he faces no consequence, or no one can really do anything about him, which makes him even more detestable. Because the role of a "scumbag" differs from that of a standard "villain," he avoids long-term repercussions; this makes him even more loathsome, further aggravating both the other characters and the readers. And he remains incredibly smug about it.
I’ll reiterate: these are just my thoughts. It’s fine if you disagree, but your disagreement doesn't really have any bearing on this post.
Of course, not every "asshole" character meets these exact criteria, but for me, a character who is "such a asshole that everyone, including all the superheroes, hates him" must meet this standard. Furthermore, a character who is such an "asshole" to a level that that becomes an appealing trait must reach this level. And the superficial jerkiness Jason displayed in Countdown was just boring and cheap, bordering on annoying. He reached the bare minimum level of bad words and an attitude, but on the actions aspect, the only thing he did that was kinda countable is betrayed the team and shot Domna, but that was a play and was to help them escape? If the story was trying to make Jason appears like an asshole, they have to actually make it convincing.
Then we have utrh. And, albeit reluctantly, most of his appearances throughout the rest of the post crisis era. Now we're getting sidetracked. Clearly, this part of the story positions Jason as a villain, not just an asshole. However, this version of the character is far more convincing, and he somehow inherits traits typical of a "bastard," stemming from his history as a villain, he was endowed with many characteristics usually reserved for bad guys: constantly antagonizing the heroes, questionable morals, violent tendencies, ethically dubious actions, and an unapologetic attitude. To me, this iteration scores higher on the "bastard" scale, but again this story positions him as an antagonist rather than just a generic jerk. His most egregious act, carrying a bag of severed heads, falls squarely into the category of morally questionable behavior, both in terms of its effectiveness and its impact. Compare this to Jason in Countdown: he engaged in "deception" and "betrayal," but those were merely ruses to save the team. It was a poor attempt at playing the bastard; it didn't fit the archetype at all, so I have to dock him points. Jason’s "bastard" persona in Countdown didn't even clear the minimum bar for me; he only managed the basics, like harsh language and an unpleasant attitude.
But then, and I think others have pointed this out, there is a certain artificiality to Jason’s persona in utrh. Whether or not you view him as naturally dramatic, that trait was clearly amplified to the point of being theatrical. There is a palpable sense of phoniness to the role, as if he is showing you exactly what he wants you to see.
Now, compare his portrayal in utrh with his role in Countdown, then compare both of those to his characterization in the New 52, and finally, compare the utrh persona with how he presents himself at the end of that same story. You can spot the artificiality of his Red Hood persona when contrasted with his truly authentic self during the confrontation. Or, compare his behavior in Countdown: his prickly attitude when the Titans track him down and when he recounts his story to Jimmy Olsen; his general demeanor toward superheroes and his interactions with Donna before their relationship fractured. Like when he sought her out to warn her about the Monitors and comforted her at Bart’s funeral. Then there’s his role within the Bat-family during the New 52 era (I’m still struggling to reconcile the shift from Pre-New 52 to New 52), where he’s portrayed as a guy who is "kind of unlikable, formerly a bad guy and a killer who’s now reformed, yet still somewhat abrasive." Compare how he acts around Dick, Tim, and Damian, who view him as a jerk, with how he treats Barbara. And regarding Damian: I think he shows a certain level of patience and tolerance toward the kid. Then compare that to his dynamic with Bruce. Finally, weigh his "jerkish" behavior toward the Bat-family in the New 52 against the "jerkish" nature of some of the things Bruce did to him; I’d ask you to consider which actions truly deserve that label. Which ones should be classified as betrayal, deceit, inhumanity, or a violation of basic moral standards?
To simply label Jason a "jerk" in the New 52 era feels incredibly superficial to me, it’s judging the story purely on the surface. In reality, none of his actions really warrant that kind of negative mark, especially when compared to what others have done.
(n52 narrowed down his characterization into a bad guy who killed people but reformed and make it shallow, so it's easy for them to just position him as an asshole with an attitude ig. But he's all bark and no bite.)
In short, this is based on my reading experience spanning from the Post-Crisis era to the New 52, so it might be incomplete or even incorrect. But if I'm not mistaken, his era of vile villainy came to an end after post crisis, and he became a reformed villain after N52. Along with that, the cruel, evil, and despicable acts he committed, and those quoted by readers, were all encapsulated in the post-crisis. “He disguised himself as Nightwing and killed people,” “he slit Tim’s throat,” “he tried to make Bruce kill Joker” (seriously?), “he shot Damian,” “he kidnapped and beat Mia,” “he slit Tim’s throat.” “He killed people” the most boring argument of my life.
I keep thinking that in N52 he must have gone through a thousand identity crises, and tended to play the bad guy to serve the story or what others think of him. The fact that his narrative is allowed to say, "Oh my god, I was so angry," makes me want to pull my hair out. Even worse, he'll talk about his Robin phase like this: "I was so angry, Bruce tried so hard, I failed, I was so violent and needed Bruce to guide me," like I was going to start killing people with my bare hands.
Anyway, my main point is not to argue whether is Jason an asshole or not, it's saying that "the appeal of Jason Todd is that he is an asshole" is ridiculous to me, because to me, he truly failed miserably in that role. Countdown was a joke, but in N52, he was simply pathetic and everyone's favorite punching bag. I just wonder what it would be like if everyone thought he was a completely evil, wicked bastard by nature, when the truth is the complete opposite, but clearly, this role of his is still going to continue. Even in 100 years, the characters and fans will still think he's a jerk, I'm sure.
Reconciliation for the bats where the past times theyve severely harmed jason that go unacknowledged is awesome when you acknowledge it as unacknowledged. Pat on his back and getting his hair ruffled while hanging out peacefully but internally hes thinking about harm that will never be brought up. How do you say it. Is it worth saying it. Genuinely laughing at joke while thinking about the fact that who youre laughing with hit you so hard you were bedridden for 3 weeks!. Thats the stuff babey!!!!!!!
I wonder why so many fics about the Crime Family Batfamily have Jason Todd be the muscle/mad dog of the organization. When he is the only one who knows how to run a gang/Mafia. He has done it multiple times with his own gang and the Yakuza. Dick has more experience being a goon/muscle than Jason after his whole appointment/life blew up. It's just annoying seeing him demoted from being a confident leader to a muscle head
Jason going on this whole rant about wanting to kill Bruce to Talia of all people and then having the audacity to ask her for help took me out, what's wrong with this guy ❤️
Jason does a really interesting thing in UtRH where he consistently positions himself with the other victims of the Joker. Every speech he makes about the Joker is essentially "them and, worse, me". The worse there being because Jason is Bruce's son. His argument over the various moments (and this goes for Lost Days, as well), comes down to this: It is bad enough that Bruce didn't kill the Joker before Jason died. That, in itself, when the Joker had already killed who knows how many, when he had already shot Barbara (and Jason was alive when that happened, canonically) - that is nearly indefensible.
But even if he forgives that. Even if he accepts that.
The Joker then killed Bruce's son. And not only did Bruce not kill him them, he continued to not kill him, even when bodies continued to pile up. Note that at this point in continuity, not only does Joker likely have a body count well into the triple digits, he's also attempted mass infanticide and killed Gordon's wife (fiance?).
And yet. For his moral code, for his peace of mind, because it would be too easy - Bruce lets him live. And inherently, in the world of DC as it exists, letting the Joker live means letting the Joker kill. Even if you don't agree, it's certainly what Jason believes, look at what he says:
"I thought I'd be the last person you let him hurt."
So here's our scene: Jason, who has been positioning himself as both Bruce's son and also just another victim of the Joker, is holding the Joker at gunpoint. The options are: let Jason kill the Joker, or kill Jason.
Him or me, you have to choose.
This is a choice. This was always the choice. Inaction is still a choice. Every victim of the Joker is also a victim of the collateral of the no killing rule.
Him or me, you have to choose.
Bruce has to choose. No more pretending his choice doesn't have direct victims, no more acting like no-killing doesn't also mean accepting that the victim's of the Joker are a sacrifice to the rule.
Him or me.
Him or me.
Him or me.
You have to decide. You have to choose, now, while his victim looks you in the eyes. You have to choose while the victim still has a voice to tell you you're making the wrong choice.
But Bruce is Bruce. And he tries a third way. And everybody loses! Bruce finds a way to win and everybody loses - but then, maybe that's been the choice he's been making this whole time, over and over. Until there were graveyards full of the consequences.
If Jason is going to be wrong, let him be wrong and cathartic. Let him be wrong and still a voice of every victim. Let him be wrong and unforgiving, uncomprising, demanding every hero to choose, to look at the graveyards full of bodies and know their role in it.
Let him be rage and grief and blood crying for blood, of everyone who has ever been collateral.
I will never get behind Jason leaving behind the mask to be a civilian. That boy was risking himself to stop Ma Gunn's museum heist BEFORE he was Robin! He runs into a burning building when his body should be paralyzed by the fear lobotomy Batman did to him! All because he heard a kid screaming. He was meant to be a hero! It's in his bones! In his blood! In his marrow! I will never buy into him giving up Red Hood (unless it's for a different persona) OR weird time shenanigans where he goes back and decides to quit being or never become Robin! I don't buy it! I refuse! He was built to be a hero! To save people! And I don't think he should have to stop.
do Jason Todd writers and fans know theres more than one type of poverty. I have a mini timeline of my own interpretation of Jason's childhood:
Jason had two parents and a dog in his early childhood, he went to school. At the very least, his father was working. He definitely wasn't starving or without a bed, even though they were poor. He'd probably only notice that they can't afford very new or nice things at that age.
When his dad is jailed/convicted is when it gets more noticeable, he wouldn't see his mom very often because it's her that's working, they probably wouldn't be able to keep their dog. He still goes to school, he's still fed.
It's when Catherine gets sick and starts using that things get bad, very quickly. She still tries to provide through desperate measures and keep her boy fed, but it's obvious she and he are dwindling, there's often no heat or AC, and Jason drops out of school to care for her and be a provider himself. This is when he starts doing petty crimes.
He becomes truly homeless after her death, petty crimes, shady gigs, and tire stealing and selling are how he gets by. Don't know when the smoking started but he's stressed so leave him alone. He hasn't eaten well in awhile and despite being a "big kid" that'll still stunt his growth for years to come. He lives like this for at least a year before he meets Batman at the age of 12.
TLDR? Poverty can look like a lot of things, i think it's a lot more interesting, devastating, and realistic to see a family break apart and hit rock bottom when they weren't even that far from it. Most families irl aren't too far from being effected by a similar series of events. Also can everyone stop writing Willis as abusive
bruce saying damian is growing on him as if bruce isn’t the nightmare roommate like oh my god old man YOU’RE the one who needs to start in hell and earn their way out not your sweet son who you’ve been living with for four years you should be scared you’re not growing on HIM. and the worst thing in the world is bruce has definitely grown on damian because damian loves him a lot and would never say this someone kill the batman already god please
What do you get out of saying anything that disparages Jason and prefacing or concluding the sentence with 'I'm a Jason fan?'
Seriously, what are you expecting to as a response?
“It doesn’t matter what Jason’s intentions were, what he did was bad. As his fan, I can accept that he's not always right.”
‘Jason’s my favorite character but unlike other fans, I can accept that he’s a bad person has done bad things.”
"I love Jason, but he sucks as a character."
"Red Hood's so cool, but he has no good comics."
Okay, now what? You've ridiculed your so-called favorite character in front of a group of people who already don't like him. So what are you hoping to achieve? That they'll let you sit at the same lunch table? That they'll talk to you? Refer to you as the one okay Jason fan?
What you're actually doing is alienating other Jason fans and allowing for his haters to continue spreading misinformation about him whether it be his abilities, his personality, his capabilities, his origin, his age, anything. You're allowing people to spread lies and laugh about it through the same tired and old jokes. This is how 'jokes' of Jason being a pervert for having discord come up. This is how extremely and borderline fatphobic jokes about his body and Fatson Todd come up. This is how jokes about Jason being an idiot who can't do anything without help come up. This is how jokes of Jason being sympathetic to ICE and the police come up (are you guys fucking serious? do any of you understand how being a vigilante and it defaulted to working outside of/against the government works?) Because some of you feel like you can't say anything because then it would upset people, when newsflash, Jason could breathe and these people would be on him for taking someone else's oxygen.
There's nothing wrong with accepting that a portion of Jason's actions aren't morally correct. There's nothing wrong with criticizing some of his actions and statements. That's not the issue. I love the morally questionable and selfish actions Jason has taken, that makes him an interesting, dynamic, and compelling character. That's the whole point.
The issue is allowing people who haven't read Jason's comics, haven't discussed him and his history outside of being in the batfamily, haven't done any kind of analysis or exploration into his character, and have consumed information from screenshots of comics or videos that almost always miss important context dictate Jason Todd as a character.
For example, when you peddle the false idea that there aren't any good Jason comics, you're going to have people who know nothing about him outside of ADITF and UTRH recommend those two comics and those two comics only. They completely ignore the entirety of Jason's Robin run where there is integral characterization and development, they ignore Lost Days that shows you how intelligent Jason is and what his morals are, they ignore his post-ressurection development that's still interesting and tells you more about his motivations than any screenshot without context could. And this is where the misinformation comes in. You have people accusing Pre-Crisis Jason copying Dick's origin when the whole point was to set up parallels between the old Robin and new, you have people getting angry and annoyed that Jason is working with a superhero/vigilante that they like as if he's not a capable tactician and fighter (who other people can like, just because you don't like him doesn't mean they won't), people who cry about other characters getting mischaracterized when they work with Jason but say nothing when it's reversed, etc.
This is where antis feel comfortable enough to come into comment sections and 'um actually' Jason fans who have spent months if not years compiling information and analyzing comics, panels, letter columns, interviews, etc. for a scrap of information. Antis who love huff and puff about how we speak about classism, Jason's response to his death, his age and physical appearance, and the writer's inability to write a cohesive character that follows his previous characterization because they've made Batman their cash cow and cannot afford for a character to have any semblance of a tangible, human, and valid argument that discredits him.
I'm not saying you can't disagree with things Jason has done, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be friends with people who don't like Jason, I'm not saying you can have your own headcanons and create a world in which those are real. But it's getting very fucking tiring having to see misinformation spread at the cost of Jason's character, spending time debunking it, having it be ignored for something else that completely disregards canon information, and then having that turned on Jason fans, being called cherry-pickers and copers for getting annoyed.
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