FloweryFlees Blog

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[ashesofdawn]

I’m not that fond of the notion that Kaeya’s bad with feelings or emotionally unintelligent, because everything we’ve seen of him has said otherwise.

He’s very in tune with the feelings and emotions and others and considers their needs well, and he is quite aware of his own feelings, vices and turmoil - it’s just that he has a sense of fatalism that he mostly just applies to himself because, well, the rules of the world he exists in stereotyped and villainized his people, and his family lineage specifically, over 500 years ago to the point everything in that system pointed to him being a terrible person. Not only that, but the environment he was in and the people he was with did very little, if anything to contradict that message. He’s a decent person who got dealt an awful hand in life (you ever tried playing poker with only the 3-10 number cards and only one’s a spade? Like that), particularly during some of the biggest developmental periods, childhood + young adulthood, that he’s barely out of. Even so, from what we’ve seen of him, he’s rarely, if ever truly considered anyone else a lost cause, even if they’ve wronged him in some way.

You can see it in how, despite everything he’s seen and what stemmed from his own childhood, he still goes out of his way to make sure kids in the present time don’t lose theirs. How he helps cover for people who had dark pasts and are trying to break free, like Jilliana, without thanks or even the other party knowing. He even looks out for a guy who fumbles all the time, like Captain Wu, despite struggling to remember who he was when they met up again during Kaeya’s hangout. He’s even shown hanging out with and getting to know people like Reckless Pallad on a more personal level, such as having drinks with them on his off time. It’s usually vulnerable people, like the elderly, who have the best things to say about him. You don’t have to be one of the “chosen ones” by the system or someone who proved their goodness through vibes (TM) or hard work for Kaeya to want to look out for you, even if he peppers it in sarcasm he actually shows up when you need it. He also has a lot of markings that require a ton of critical thought and tact in the emotional/social department: accountability, the ability to be criticized even by his own friends and family, being able to improve on his behavior when called out on it, and how he always tries to prioritize what the other party has to say rather than just assuming he knows best or overriding their consent (which, ironically, is a trait that keeps popping up in the characters Hoyo and the fandom keep propping up as the nicest and most emotionally intelligent…take some time to really think about that one). He also didn’t instantly trust in an upbringing that involved making his identity revolve around being good because some legacy or godly values said so. All of those things require a lot of thought and care put into navigating and understanding your own/others’ feelings or circumstances, and being able to rein them in. Kaeya is, by no means, an emotionally unintelligent character towards others.

Now, as for towards himself, I just want to tackle this common conclusion the fandom often jumps to about Kaeya: no, his fatalism towards himself is not a sign of stupidity or an inability to see what’s good for him. Out of all the ways Kaeya’s been interpreted by the fandom in all these years, this is the one I despise the absolute most, mainly because it involves a lot of harmful, unexamined biases and has that overarching issue of prioritizing how Kaeya’s issues are inconvenient to other (white) characters’ feelings without thinking about how he’s affected by them.

I’ve said this before, but Kaeya can, and does see how he can be loved by others. He even makes it clear in multiple branches of his Hangouts, such as when he tells the theater troupe that he has friends and family in Mondstadt waiting for him, when he assures Adelinde that he’ll be fine because he’s met a lot of good people outside the Winery, when he makes a big speech about doing a coin toss to decide whether Captain Wu would be his friend only to not go through with it, and he reminisces on his times with Crepus, Diluc, and the Winery pretty positively even if it pains him to remember sometimes. He even wonders if his father left him in Mondstadt to protect him instead of assuming the worst in the Caribert quest. He’s aware of the love people have shown him in the past and present. Unfortunately, and especially with the specific circumstances he’s been through, that’s not the same as being assured in its authenticity. Nor does being loved in such a way necessarily translate into being trusted, valued, or safe.

To him, it doesn’t matter whether he sees the love they have for him - because even if that love and admiration wasn’t faked, it never stopped them from leaving, giving up on him in some way, treating him noticeably different from others or peppering it with unsavory remarks. And most of all, it could be rescinded at any time, particularly if anything involving his past or roots with Khaenri’ah were involved, or if he couldn’t be what others wanted (see why only ever praising Kaeya for what he can do for others isn’t enough to prove to him that he’s soooo loved?)

He seems to be aware that his birth father held genuine affection for him, but that didn’t stop him from leaving, now did it?

He doesn’t doubt the love Crepus and Diluc gave him in the past. Trouble is, that love was not only instantly rescinded from him and still in disrepair even now, but Crepus didn’t get the same treatment despite also lying and keeping secrets for much more selfish reasons, and likely as long as Kaeya hid his from the winery’s inhabitants.

“But when will he get it through his thick skull that the knights care and that he can open up to them!!” Except Amber instantly rescinded her niceness and started assuming the worst of him when he said “no” to her help once, and never got called out for it or asked to respect his boundaries. Except Jean also chides him for his bad decisions and tendencies to work alone while not only not speaking up against others’ boundary-crossing behavior, but tends to be a lot more easygoing towards other knights for acting similarly or worse (*cough* Albedo in Paralogism *cough*). Except that the only time they really talk positively about him, it’s about what he can do for them (and in Lohen’s case, it feels like a backhanded compliment). And let’s not forget how everyone condemns laziness, shiftiness and has shown disdain or pressure towards him for his behavior…only for Varka to show up behaving exactly like the kind of behavior they condemn but worse than anything Kaeya’s ever shown, but it’s okay because Varka’s soooo amazing! No one’s going to call him out because he’s the overly worshipped Grand Master!

Then there’s how the Hexenzirkel are in contact with basically everyone else in Mondstadt for one reason or another, but can’t be bothered with him.

Even other Khaenri’ahns, like Dainsleif, are quick to be wary of him and point out his connection to his ill-reputed family name (while completely leaving out their own family members’ involvement in the matter). In front of his own friends, no less.

That’s not even getting to how the Traveler will condemn his behavior and even treat him like he’s one of the most immature people they’ve ever met, only to be perfectly fine with similar or worse behavior from the rest of Mondstadt…and is even okay with cracking jokes about spiking his drink (as recently as Nod-Krai) or not even considering him for relevant conversations such as about Chlothar and Caribert Alberich, Irmin, or Crepus.

That aside, a lot of the characters above have also been heavily worshipping the system that doomed his homeland and treated his people like there was something wrong with them for deviating from it. Crepus and Diluc’s reverence of Visions and their Archon, The Knights, church and citizenry of Mondstadt not being all that different…none of them have been checked on that notion, not even by the Traveler despite everything they’ve learned about Celestia and the fake skies during their journey. Even if they’re nice about it, combined with his experiences above Kaeya’s constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop, and for good reason. When Kaeya is reluctant to receive this kind of love, it’s not stupidity or ignorance - it’s clear, logical thinking based on what he’s gotten from the past and what he’s seen of the environment he ended up in.

…do you see the pattern and why it’s insidious to blame Kaeya for being stupid when this is the pattern and experience he’s had with his environment? And not only was he sent messages since he was born that he could never be a good person and his family’s past will catch up to him, but none of the characters I mentioned above ever pushed back against that notion or stopped feeding into it? The first time I legitimately saw that happen was when Collei showed concern that Kaeya might be perceived as a bad person for playing the Master Thief in Veluriyam Mirage - the first time someone tried to be positive about him in a context other than what he could do for others, and without any jabs or sarcasm plastered in there. It took three years into the game for that to happen, to show concern about Kaeya’s feelings on something rather than whether he’s affecting, helping or especially inconveniencing everyone else around him. Even if it wasn’t the intent, over-focusing on that is one of the most surefire ways to make someone feel burdensome and not want to draw attention to themselves no matter how much they’re going through. It’s honestly a miracle that he’s still got so much unconditional love in him, and that he hasn’t lost faith in humanity altogether.

Maybe stop and think about why Kaeya’s always automatically seen and presented as the problem in these situations, while the system and environment that made him constantly alert for the other shoe dropping can never be challenged or criticized. I’d like to see more content where he isn’t blamed for the failings of a system that wrote revisionist history in Teyvat, a nation that he moved to for safety reasons where he has to deal with centuries of generational problems that aren’t even remotely his fault, or a skewed narrative that didn’t tell the entire side of the story for the Alberichs. He’s not emotionally unintelligent or stupid, quite the opposite really - he needs a break from everyone else’s unchecked shit. Like, no wonder he ended up with that deep sense of fatalism for himself that lasted for so long - how is he supposed to see things any differently if these are the messages he keeps getting from people and the system that runs the world he lives in???

[akaeyamain]

That was a request I got a few weeks ago, I wrote a whole thing then accidentally deleted it and Tumblr does not have a "request memory" so I couldnt pin the original comment. 😭

I can only hope this will make its way back to whoever made the request!!!

Well a grand hello to this philosopher !

Sorry for the time it took me to get to this take, its my first vear of medical school fresh out of high school so pressure was on lmao.

This is a very interesting take so i took some time to think it through.

I have shared a few short. surface level rants on the hexenzirkel before - mainly focused on Rhinedottir - but this just gives me the opportunity to delve a little more into details and just kind of recap what we have so far about the hexenzirke and their future.

Now the Kaeya part is actually interesting and i've never really thought about what would become of his character if he'd been a woman instead. This is going to be a good opportunity to expend my ideas on my favorite character.

That being said, and as a wise short Italian plumber with a mustache and a red cap once said; Let's-a go!

PS : Keep in mind this is just a personal opinion based on my interpretation of the lore :) You are free to disagree and I'll gladly hear you out on it!

ROADMAP:

1. Morality of the hexenzirkel- or the lack thereof.

2. Fandom perception of morally gray characters according to gender and Hoyoverse's role in it

3. Kaeya

4. Conclusion

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

I. Morality of the hexenzirkel- or the lack therof

First, let's establish some basic facts about the circle before judging its morality.

The Hexenzirkel is a supposedly mysterious group, founded by Alice when she was still a young child known as the "little merry-witch." They don't seem to have any overarching goal as an organization unlike, for instance, the Fatui. The individual members largely pursue their own goals. That's because Alice's admission standard wasn't nobility or virtue. Her only requirement is to be interesting. Which is why Rhinedottir became a prized member of the circle of witches.

That is already a problem, in my eyes. While never being explicitly cast in either a benevolent or antagonistic light, this does not imply neutrality. Willingly associating with problematic people because they are 'interesting' isnt a neutral or good stance.

An easy example: whenever human rights are up for debate (abortions, queer rights, workplace inequalities) there are people who vote to protect them , and others who vote against. Those who remain silent and do not vote are just as guilty as those voting against, because they aren't doing anything to defend those rights.

And if only it was just them associating together! Alice explicitly says in the Nod-Krai Archon Quest that she would "clean up after dear Rhinedottir." She also took in Albedo at Rhinedottir's request. It was Alice who brought him to the Knights of Favonius, believing they had the resources to build him a large research lab. She is still a reliable friend to Gold.

So basically we shouldnt expect the Hexenzirkel to be a family-friendly order as it was created by Alice, who is herself deeply problematic and selfish.

To start off strong, Alice is well aware of the cataclysm and how the innocent people of kaenriah were cursed to transform into monsters and suffer for the rest of eternity. She still does not have a shred of sympathy for them.

Her "experiments" include launching Hilichurls at high speeds towards the sky just to see if they'd reach Celestia. She has tied Hilichurls up inside cabins of active Ruin Guard. According to the Teyvat Travel Guide, she even attempted to make a Hilichurl slave farm to power Mondstadt's windmills by putting them in giant spinning balls (yes, the same ones we use for hamsters), feeding the older, exhausted Hilichurls to the stronger ones to "recycle them" and keep the mills going.

In the city of fucking wind, mind you. Wind mills only need wind to function. It's in their name.

She also blew up a large portion of Stormterror's Lair and its surroundings because she thought it wasn't aesthetically pleasing enough, with no respect for wildlife, nature, or the potential casualties if a group of adventurers or knights had been there.

Overall, Alice's "experiments" have no scientific basis. They are purely for her own enjoyment. She is deeply amoral, if not outright cruel, and she has no respect for life or smaller, weaker creatures. This is also showcased in more niche anecdotes: like how she emotionally scarred Yae Miko or injured one of Sara's wings.

As such, one cannot expect morality from a group that was:

1. founded by someone deeply amoral,

2. filled with people that amoral person liked, and

3. composed of people who accepted to associate with her and the other members she chose.

Remember: in some situations, neutrality is only convenience or cowardice, rebranded as peace.

I dont even feel like i need to talk about Rhinedottir's crimes as everyone is quite aware, but for the sake of being thorough |'l still summarize them here.

She created a wide variety of creature as experiments, most of them being somewhat sentient and having a will of their own, only to experiment on then and discard them if they displeased her.

The only subject she was satisfied with we know of is Albedo. whose creation also produced many failures like Subiect Two, whom she disposed of by leaving in Durin's stomach. Subject two was the only one who survived this.

Her other creations were let loose, endangering the rest of the world and even beyond the boundaries of Teyvat. Examples include the Bakunawa, whom she couldn't control and who even injured her; the Rifthounds and Riftwolf Whelps; the Fellflower; and the Golden Wolflord, who is obsessed with invading worlds outside his own just to "make a name for himself" because Rhinedottir never gave him one.

And thats not even including the doomed dragon duo. Durin who was still an innocent child, was corrupted beyond recognition and unleashed upon mondstadt only to be killed by Barbatos and dvalin even if he was mentally corrupted and never realized he was hurting people. He was left to rot on a freezing moutain, only visited by his mother when she wanted to use his stomach as a gravesite for his other siblings.

And the Elynas who managed to realize he'd been corrupted and was harming others through his existance and was so distraught by it he took his own life.

She also doomed Khaenri'ah by choosing to partake in Abyssal energy. The five sinners were repeatedly said and shown to have been able to break the Khaenri'ahn curse, but they never did.

II. Fandom perception of morally gray characters according to gender and Hoyoverse's role in it

I think the title of this segment speaks for itself because we have a very glaring exemple presented by the game itself : Rhinedottir vs Dottore.

Now, while there is a large community in the fandom that loves Dottore, it is undeniable he has his haters. Very vehement haters who despise him and not without reason. Most of the hate stems from the fact that he caused the suffering of many, including beloved playable characters such as Diluc and Scaramouche.

But...doesnt this remind us of someone else?

Rhinedottir is related to basically every bad thing to have ever occurred on the surface of Teyvat in the past 500 years. She caused the suffering of playable characters and beloved NPCs like Dainsleif and Capitano. Yet I have yet to see any hate account for her. The comment sections of posts she appears in are just a bunch of people calling her "mommy."

I do believe hoyoverse contributes a lot to this narrative and double standard because it never holds its female characters to any level of accountability.

If alice had been a man, she would've been called an absent, neglectful dad. She litterally only sees her kid once a year.

"B-but she sends klee fun things! Like the dodoco islands and the Veluriyam Mirage!"

Ah yes. You mean the fun toys and experiences she provides once a year to excuse her absence? No different from a neglectful dad that tries to buy his kid's affection with tablets and pocket money. Alice wouldve been flammed for this if she was a man. How can I say that for sure? Just look at the amount of people hating on varka.

But Hoyoverse refuses to see it through that lense, instead making her seem like a cool, fun mom. I refuse to believe klee doesnt miss her mother or father - any kid would- but hoyoverse burries that natural consequence in order to prevent Alice from looking bad.

Same thing with Rhinedottir. We started getting some real talk about her in game during the paralogism archon quest.

And they tried so so hard to press on the aspect of family, of making Rhinedottir a mother, albeit a horrible one.

"Ah yes, my mother who is responsible for the downfall of a nation, the eternal suffering of innocent people she could undo but doesnt want to and abandonned all her kids but me because I was born perfect. She s just unusual."

So we're supposed to feel bad for her now? Because she suffered from the madness she willingly chose by absorbing abyssal power with the other sinners? We're supposed to be happy for her??

Meanwhile, when someone tries to bring up how Zandik might not have been evil from the start; how he was chased out of an entire village by angry adults with fire and spikes as a child, and "lost" his empathy at age 8 (meaning he did have it at some point), people start complaining that we should just let Dottore be evil. That we don't need to give a sad backstory to everyone, or try to redeem them.

But if its a hot woman - who is arguably worse than dottore - then its not so bad right?

It also ultimately boils down to hoyoverse refusing to let women be villains or have complex psyches, they always have to redeem them in some way or make them allign with the traveller even if it doesnt make sense lore wise while they allow male characters to have different stances towards the traveller, like Pantalone who watched the mc's journey closely but also understands they are a liability to his plans and does not hesitate to stand against them.

Even xiao who is often clowned on for being shipped with the traveller establishes clear boundaries not to push, like not speaking ill of Rex lapis.

To some extent, I do understand that Hoyoverse might not be able to make (female) characters truly evil if they are to be playable. But in that case, I would much rather they introduce NPCs who could take that role. For example, Wuthering Waves puts actual effort into their NPCs, and some of them become vital allies or villains in the main quests. A few examples are Cristoforo, The Shaper, and Avidius. (Not to mention their designs are GORGEOUS).

It would at least prove they arent incapable of writing morally gray/evil women, thet just can't make them playable. And that would've been fine.

III. Kaeya

Now this part was a little more tricky for me because I'd never stopped to think about how being a woman would impact Kaeya's character.

So let us start by shaping a little ID card of him:

□ At first glance, Kaeya doesn't seem like a very complicated character. Our first interactions paint him as charismatic, someone who can resort to unorthodox means to get what he wants. At this point, nothing would make a difference. We have characters like Yelan who are quite similar to him in this aspect and still well liked.

□ But then you start looking a little closer, and you realize Kaeya's character is torn in more ways than one. First and most obviously: his conflicting loyalties to his homeland and the land he came to view as home.

□ With that comes his behavior. He pushes others away and refuses to let himself be read—and yet he still does good in the shadows, where he thinks nobody will notice his gentle heart. Like when he threw Jean a party during her story quest, but refused to take credit and asked the MC to pretend it was their idea instead.

During the quest "a commission from 'that guy'" (the guy being kaeya), kaeya and his informant Vile work in the shadows to protect a woman named Jiliana being stalked by treasure hoarders. He stops the traveller from involving the knights in this, because Vile mentions during the prerequisite quest A Surprise Gift, the Knights of Favonius have a habit of being too thorough and bureaucratic.

If they caught wind of Treasure Hoarders extorting a Church sister, they would launch a massive, loud, public investigation. That would expose Jiliana's past as a Treasure Hoarder and ruin her reformed life where she married and had a lovely daughter. So basically kaeya went through a whole convoluted process to deal with both the official affair of a sister being threatened and keeping Jiliana and her family safe without ever trying to boast about it.

In all segments of his hangouts, kaeya is shown helping others by outsmarting bad guys. And they want us to focus on him pulling his strings and spinning his shady kaeya things, but you just have to look a little longer to see he did it all to help someone, like how he scammed a scammer in Liyue, or how he asked if the sumeru play would loose money if altered the script, etc.

So basically we can summarize him like this :

•morally ambiguous without being outright villainous,

•emotionally guarded,manipulative while still deeply compassionate,

•traumatized without having that trauma excuse everything he does,

•charismatic enough that different people can interpret him very differently.

So as he is, I do not think the fandom perception of him would change had he been a woman. His traits arent inherently gendered.

But.

The question is whether HoYoverse's writing patterns suggest a female Kaeya would receive the same treatment in the first place. Would gender bend kaeya really just be kaeya with boobs or would he be shifted into something a little different?

Female playable characters in Genshin often end up with stories that emphasize empathy, nurturing, or emotional accessibility (and i dont mean they end up kind! Just that they always end up showing emotional vulnerability, like we have seen with Sandrone). Even when they're morally gray, the narrative frequently spends time explaining or softening their actions.

Male characters are somewhat more likely to be left intentionally inscrutable. Kaeya, Dainsleif, Childe, Wanderer, and even Zhongli keep major secrets for years without the story rushing to justify every aspect of their behavior.

For the sake of academic honesty, I'll still add the counter exemples of Arlecchino and Yae Miko where those writing problems arent as bad, but they are genuinely the only female characters I can think of that were allowed to be morally complicated and manipulative (even though most of it is off screen). But also 2 female characters in almost a hundred not fitting the trend isnt exactly a feat.

Male Kaeya's appeal is built around mystery. The game is comfortable leaving questions unanswered:

◇ Is he a descendant of kaenriahn survivors or something more interesting?

◇ Why does he hide his eye?

◇ What are his true loyalties?

◇ How much does he actually know?

If Kaeya had been female, it's possible the writers would have felt more pressure to make her motivations emotionally explicit earlier, rather than letting ambiguity linger for years. That's a trend seen in some —not all— of Genshin's female story quests. I also doubt her relationship with diluc would've been untouched because it wouldnt be a good look for diluc to fight a visionless younger girl, almost kill her and abandon her there.

So my view would be:

- Would hoyo allow fem!kaeya to be complex: Probably yes, because it's tied to the central narrative of kaenriah.

- Presentation of that complexity? That's where I think gender could plausibly have changed things, with a female Kaeya potentially receiving more overt emotional framing and less prolonged ambiguity.

And without a male kaeya to compare it to, I think fem kaeya would ve been peak too and I dont believe the fandom would suddenly hate her. But I do think she would be less liked than male Kaeya currently is because of how genshin tends to conform female characters to certain standards and it makes their characters loose a small spark of individuality.

IV. END THOUGHTS

So basically, anon's hot take consisted of "kaeya would be hated if he was a woman" and "the hexenzirkel would be hated if they were men".

I understand where the first take was coming from, and right out the bat i was tempted to agree. But with the reflexion i have written across this vlog, I believe it would not be the case.

However, I am much more inclined to agree with the second part.

I don't believe the Hexenzirkel would be hated if they were male. I think they would be reviled. I think the fandom would call them exactly what they are: a group of amoral, dangerous individuals, some having caused immeasurable suffering and face no consequences for it.

But because they're women, because Hoyoverse refuses to let them be true villains ; they get a pass.

My best way to argument this is just using dottore. While he is broadly liked as a villain, he is also criticized and his acts are never forgotten. If he'd been a woman, chances are Hoyoverse wouldve written him a lot more differently and perhaps he wouldn't have died.

So that was my position on Anon's hot take ! I hope i could remain as objective as possible even if i never quite hid my distaste for the hexenzirkel, especially Alice and Rhinedottir because I actually like the others if not for the fact they continue to associate with them 🫣. As always, if you agree or disagree feel free to comment why. I am very prone to changing my mind as I am quite open minded (or at least I try to be) so its always nice to hear people's opinions!

I wish you guys well! I m excited for Snezhnaya! :D

Bye bye !

[ashesofdawn]

Now I really saw/felt firsthand what you mean by the game’s casual erasure of Kaeya in Lohen's quest, Knight's Legacy. Really though. I did not like the erasure of Kaeya in that quest. And you know what else, in his voice line, though Lohen does claim that Kaeya has great moral fiber (sounds really back/underhanded to be honest), he still shows more compassion/sympathy to Diluc in his voice lines… 

Like, why is it that Diluc always gets such a downpour of sympathy, support, second chances, and tolerance of his sometimes downright rude/hurtful words/behavior towards those he deems as "incompetent", "lazy", “slacker”? (Unsurprisingly, words Kaeya is always accused of being unprompted by traveller, Paimon, and Mondstaters, words that reinforce Mondstat's toxic overwork culture). 

For example, Lohen—even goes as far as empathising with Diluc, claiming they were both victims of the same person. Even showing regret or dismay that he is not coming back to becoming a knight. Also, shows Diluc senior-appropriate respect unprompted even when he is an enemy/thorn in his plan. 

When it comes to Crepus’s death, Diluc is always treated as the only one grieving and person deserving of amends, apologies, accommodation, and that he is always welcome to join the knights of Favonius, and change. 

With Kaeya always excluded (when he deserves them just as much, if not more for the bullshit Mondstat always puts him through—passive aggressive exclusion/mockery/suspicion and always only acknowledged for what he can or should do for others …like, what the hell?) It's like Diluc is seen as Crepus's only child, that his death affected him the most. 

Kaeya's grief is always completely ignored. Even when he too was a victim of it in many ways. Also a bigger victim of the fallout of that fight, though often not acknowledged. On top of losing his second family, gaining an unstable reputation, and having to rebuild his life—nobody was/is there for him, like ever. 

Paimon (especially her) and Traveler too, just really always add salt to injury. Never misses a beat to tell the audience how anybody who has Diluc's respect is automatically good and how those who do not are bad, lazy, or suspicious—and Crepus's other morally warped actions are still left unaddressed, ignored (so much Diluc and Crepus glazing/glorification in this quest). 

And it's just, I was so excited when I first saw him appearing in the quest, thinking he was going to play bigger roles but in the end, he just ended up sidelined. 

Yep. There’s a reason I have extremely limited tolerance for excuses or justifications for any of Mondstadt’s, the Traveler + Paimon or the narrative’s treatment of Kaeya. And why I tend to focus on humanizing aspects of Kaeya from within the game rather than how much Khaenri’ah lore he can carry or how much more miserable he could be made for angst potential (TM). In the past five years I’ve noticed a pattern in how Kaeya’s treated compared to others, both by the fanbase and the game, and though I’ve called it out several times before I don’t think I went that deep into why Kaeya’s treatment in most fan content bothers me. Especially because there’s an assumption going around that there’s a new writing team trying to appeal to the most vocal part of the fanbase…and I’ll be blunt, if I was on that team and saw what fans were saying and portraying in regards to Kaeya, I’d also assume that they weren’t interested in empathizing with or humanizing him.

I’ll be honest, the reason I started posting more about Kaeya was because despite being a character who received a lot of attention from the fanbase regardless of reason…I almost never saw anything truly humanizing or empathetic towards him in the past five years. Even with all the endless depth to his character and connection to the story, it was never used in that way and here’s what I mean.

I talked about this recently too, but Kaeya’s connections to Khaenri’ah are almost never used to empathize with or explore his character or feelings. The fanbase, even those who are positive towards him, mainly care about what kind of Michael Bay plot he can bring them, their precious lore and theory chasing, or how some white character feels about finding out about it to boost their own feelings and character. Or just want him to be made royalty because it sounds amazing, with very little thought for how he would feel or be affected by such a thing. I shouldn’t have to say this, but glorifying someone like that is not the same as empathizing or caring about them. And if he says he doesn’t know something or can’t further whatever big Khaenri’ah plot the game throws at us? “He must be lying and keeping things from us!” The audience spends so much time trying to pry precious answers out of him and looking for clues that he must be lying…while completely missing that this guy is surviving an event that not only wiped out his country with him being the sole escapee of a lingering curse, but tarnished his family’s life to the point where the world keeps sending him messages that he’s a bad person, how fucked up that is for one person to deal with with little support, and how calling his behavior “anti-heroic” at all comes off as refusing to understand that Kaeya was already dealt a bad hand with inherited trauma and subtle discrimination from even “nice” people since he was born - it’s unfair to expect him to be like his privileged and supported castmates, and yet he still ends up trying his damndest to do the kind thing without seeking approval. It’s almost like Mondstadt’s recognition of Kaeya mainly for what he can do for them manifested into the fanbase too, except with Khaenri’ah answers this time.

Even in content where he has a lot to agonize over, he’s often portrayed as having something wrong with him, is “nothing but a liar and traitor” (the amount of times I’ve seen that exact line repeated ad nauseam in Kaeya fan content without ever being deviated from…), and has to be “taught the error of his ways” or snapped out of it by one of his white castmates whose feelings are prioritized, and are treated like they automatically know better. It’s like he’s only there to make the other cast members look morally superior or to spotlight their feelings about him. Never do they (or the audience) have to step back and think about just how much is going on that would make Kaeya act off-putting in the first place, including their own complicity in it, because that would make them and the audience uncomfortable and even have to question their worldview and people are allergic to criticizing the uwu innocent (TM) Mondstadters. Even when they do have to touch on it or when they were explicitly involved in Kaeya’s downward spiral in-story, they never truly get held accountable for it, and Kaeya is almost always forced to apologize to them for making them sad. Even in content where Kaeya’s agony is the focus, he’s still not the one getting empathized with while everyone else involved is. You see the problem there? Even in the emotional department, Kaeya is the one who has to do all the work while his castmates get instantly trusted as the most moral people ever (TM) because Hoyo said so, but put very little effort into showing it when it comes to how they treat him.

Then there’s that long history of how the fandom, including Kaeya’s own fans, have this edgy knee-jerk reaction to put him down under the guise of jokes for simply existing on screen at times. I’ve lost count of so many instances where I’ve seen fan art of other characters (particularly the Traveler+Paimon, Diluc, Amber and Rosaria) antagonizing him and disrespecting his boundaries, and it being treated as hilarious and he’s deserving of it because “he LIED to us! 😭” If Kaeya lying once then actually apologizing and becoming more transparent in later content is supposed to warrant him being put down as a joke for the next five years…then pray tell, where was that energy for Godwin, who lied for a much more selfish and superficial reason and immediately got understanding and help from the Traveler for the next five years and still got off relatively scot-free? Where’s the energy for the rest of Mondstadt and their habit of sweeping problems under the rug, also for superficial reasons of not wanting to ruin their overachieving image or legacy since the start of the game and unlike Kaeya, never had to learn and improve on it? Where’s that for Crepus, whose insecurity drove him to keep secrets, keep a dangerous artifact around his sons and is still heavily revered as this man who did nothing wrong? And where is that energy now for the Traveler not even saying shit to him about the truth of his family and Caribert’s story, Dainsleif for being so quick to judge him for his family name while conveniently leaving out that his brother was the Sinner who furthered Chlothar’s downward spiral into the Abyss, and Varka and Diluc for not telling him about Crepus? The same lack of transparency that they got to react badly to him for when he did it? When Kaeya lies but gets held accountable for it, it’s a sign that he’s a traitor and untrustworthy. But when it’s one of the white characters the fandom puts on a pedestal who doesn’t even lose anything from lying, they must’ve had a good reason, they’re complex and excuses are constantly made on their behalf.

Aside from that, whenever one of Kaeya’s positive traits get spotlighted in the game…the edginess doesn’t disappear whatsoever. He gets stereotyped as some kind of idiot despite his intellect and wit being shown through his actions and intricate planning (and tbh, he comes off as much smarter than Albedo, Sucrose or Lisa to me because the writers kept shoving “they read books and say big words!” in your face to prove how smart they are, which is far less convincing than Kaeya’s consistent application of his knowledge and skills to even new situations quickly). He’s immediately flagged for being irresponsible and lazy even in situations where their only proof is some privileged white character (like Diluc and Amber) saying so and instantly being believed. He’s excluded from “best big brother/mentor figure” debates despite having such a positive track record with kids, and even proving that he’d put himself between Klee and danger without a second thought. Even in a teaser where we get a glimpse of him being some kind of lawyer…cue the fandom making jabs at how much he’d suck as one and that they’ll be going straight to jail as his defendant. And even if they’re lighthearted jokes, that stopped mattering a long time ago. Because the fandom never stops to humanize him in between all the joking. It’s either the derogatory jokes or putting him through hellish situations or headcanons for angst fulfillment (TM) rather than any actual empathy towards him like the other Mondstadters or even Khaenri’ahns get. They just repeat it without thinking, and eventually that’s how we end up with this horrendous game of Telephone that drove Kaeya’s infamous mischaracterization.

But honestly? Even then, I don’t think that’s the worst of it.

The worst would have to be how no matter how much Kaeya’s actions consistently back up his character, capacity for growth, and complexity…it’s still not enough for the fandom to stop doing all that. And it’s alongside how much they’ll instantly believe in the goodness or integrity of the white Mondstadters, or their love for him without them putting in a fraction of the effort that he does. And alongside how allergic the fandom is to criticizing Mondstadt. Like, people go on and on about how Kaeya was afraid to open up to Mondstadt and how much of a negative connotation being connected to the Abyss/Cataclysm would have in that nation, and they’ll immediately think of how Kaeya would be nothing but a traitor and a liar…but never about how it means that Mondstadt might have some unchecked biases that can cause them to be unsafe to open up to no matter how nice they present themselves on the surface, and how many red flags they’ve displayed just in the game’s content that never get addressed. I don’t know, maybe we should start retiring this “Kaeya is an idiot and a liar for not trusting his friends!” rhetoric right about now? Even the way he’s known for “wronging” the rest of the Mond cast by the fandom is heavily exaggerated, and completely falls flat when you notice just how little he truly antagonizes any of them outside of being petty - and the thing is, not only is this also based off the assumptions of some very unreliable narrators (like manga Amber being unable to take no for an answer and assuming he thinks she’s a rookie), but they do a lot more talking behind his back while he never does that towards them, and yet that discrepancy is never addressed.

I emphasize Kaeya’s humanity, how he might feel about things and how his lore drives his personality and motives first and foremost because of all the stuff above, and I do hope it’s made people stop and really think about all that over how useful he could be to the big lore plot or someone who should be made more miserable just for poetry (TM). He has so many overlooked moments, even back in the early game when he proved what kind of character he truly was, and even six years later he still comes across as one of the most genuine and undeniably heroic in the entire cast even back when he was known as an “anti-hero with attitude problems”. Honestly, as much as I’ve complained about the over-focus on lore and Michael Bay plots, they could still work in Kaeya’s content if his feelings and humanity get some kind of acknowledgement. At this point, he’s been so disrespected by the cast that unless he gets an actual apology from them, it’ll dampen any future plots Hoyo might write him into. Such as making him rule Khaenri’ah - the reason I wouldn’t like this one unless Kaeya got an apology for all the years of lack of support is because if, say, the Hexenzirkel or something suddenly showed up and asked him to be king or to save the world or fulfill some prophecy…it wouldn’t look like they want the best for him. After all the years of radio silence and lack of response when someone out there could’ve been a supportive presence in his life…it would look like they only remembered him when they needed something from him as if he’s not even human, like that’s some audacity and entitlement right there. No matter what comes out of Kaeya or Teyvat’s lore, if he’s involved it’ll need to acknowledge how he feels about things as a bare minimum, no exceptions.

[ashesofdawn]

Ik you have talked a lot about kaeya when it comes to hoyoverse writing POC who are not pale, so I’m curious as to what you think of candace and dehya? In terms of their stories, how they’re treated by the narrative, how they’re received by the fandom, etc?

Good timing, cause I was reading up on Candace’s lore again after hearing that the next Archon Quest would be taking place in Sumeru. Out of all the overall casts, the Sumeru cast has been one of my favorites since they were introduced, Candace and Dehya being no exception. I liked their presences in the Archon Quest overall, and I do like their specific dynamic. Dehya especially has a strong presence in the game when it comes to screentime and characterization, but I definitely remember moments in the story where things got weird (which I’ve offhandedly mentioned in some previous posts, which funnily enough had to do with Kaeya too). Candace is a character who has a lot of interesting aspects to her, but they get buried and her lack of content doesn’t help (she doesn’t even get hangouts during a time they were still being regularly released). But when it comes to game/fandom treatment, yeah, there were plenty of things I’ve noticed and they haven’t necessarily been great. Here, I’ll highlight the things I love about them, some interesting in-game stuff and some patterns I’ve noticed over the years.

How they fit into Sumeru’s themes of wisdom

If I had to go into detail about how the two embody wisdom/learning and what it means for the themes of Sumeru alone, I’d have to make an entirely separate post (which I’ll probably end up doing eventually), so I’ll summarize my general thoughts here:

First off, I think Dehya fits into Sumeru’s themes of wisdom and differing types of it incredibly. I’ve always preferred characters showcasing their smarts by applying it to different, seemingly unrelated situations over them being assigned a random STEM field and saying big words, so that’s why I found her appealing from the get-go. In Dehya’s case, she may not fit the sages’ ideals, but she’s good at noticing discrepancies and not writing them off, she has a lot of tactical know-how, and she’s good at navigating relationships even when it involves discomfort for herself and her friends. One of the recurring elements that come up in the discussion of wisdom is the capacity for growth, and not overlooking things even if it would’ve been the easier or more comfortable option, and I think Dehya embodies this part of it really well.

As for Candace, a lot of her wisdom shines through in how she views her role as the Guardian of Aaru Village. It’s a commonly known fact around the village that the Guardians are the chosen/descendants of King Deshret…or at least that’s what they’re made to think. Once someone is appointed Guardian, it’s revealed to them and no one else that this is a lie, there was no blessing to begin with. And apparently, this was the reason the position had such a high turnover rate before Candace stepped up: some people were so disillusioned by the revelation that they left their post completely, while others thought that not being watched by a god was a free pass to be reckless/controlling with such a revered position. Candace, though? She didn’t end up in either of those directions and took up the mantle anyway, because she didn’t need the motivation or pressure from a god to have a reason to protect the village she held so dear to her. Even in the face of a worldview she’s held her entire life being so thoroughly shattered, she’s still able to compose herself quickly, find her own reasons to take up the mantle and be a Guardian her people can truly depend on, not only keeping long-term peace in the Village, but also breaking cycles and avoiding the pitfalls that many of her predecessors had. This was entirely her decision, and she’s so unmoved by it that despite having been offered better job opportunities or an easier life, she still stands firm because she knows why she’s there and accepts it every single day. Even during the Sumeru cast’s plan to overthrow the Akademiya and free Sumeru from the sages, she still chooses to stay behind at Aaru Village because as much as she wants to participate like the others, she knows she’s better off staying where she is as its only protector in a dire time like that. Candace’s moments of wisdom get so overlooked due to not being academic in nature or full of battle strategy, but it’s incredible nonetheless and I hope she gets more appreciation for it.

Other things I love about the two and find interesting about them

Besides her varied smarts, another thing I’ve consistently liked about Dehya is her insistence on her and her boundaries being treated with respect, regardless of what anyone else has to say about it. First of all, it was so refreshing for that to come out of a female character who’s also strongly defined by her kindness, especially after Hoyo’s terrible history of associating nice women with people-pleasing and fear of disappointing others. She extends this to the Traveler and Paimon, and just like with the rest of the Sumeru cast, it not only makes her friendship with them feel genuine and earned but is a sign that she trusts them enough to tell them “no” or “I’m not okay with that”. This extends to her other friends too, such as how in her Story Quest, she’s willing to tell Dunyarzad a suspicion she had about her father at the risk of ruining their friendship simply because she believed that the latter deserved her full transparency. Dehya feels like a genuine and honest person through and through, and I’m glad the writing hit the mark with her in that regard considering how much Hoyo’s missed in the past with these kinds of characters.

I also loved her backstory and complicated thoughts on her father, which we got to see over the course of her Story Quest. I liked the acknowledgement that while Kusayla’s actions are what ultimately led to Dehya becoming the person she is in the present, it wasn’t without massive missteps that Dehya should (and does) resent him for. She’s allowed to voice and process that resentment without being treated as ungrateful or a brat, and ultimately, she comes to terms with the sacrifices he made for her to have a safer life despite his past without anyone having to push her on it. Honestly, that one cutscene where she discovers that he still kept the sword she played pretend with after all these years and gets to grieve what she had with him as a kid still makes me emotional when I re-watch it to this day. It also opened up the question of where Dehya’s ancestry comes from since Kusayla adopted her, which…Hoyoverse. Dehya Second Story Quest or Summer event like Benny got. Please. Thank you.

I do have a minor gripe with Dehya’s writing though, specifically that one part in her Story Quest where she hears about some of her male crew members harassing some of the women, which is treated like a lighthearted funny by both her and the narrative. Which is…a really messed up thing to come out of someone who’s otherwise been consistently shown to be so supportive of other women. It ended up being a one-off thing rather than a repeated pattern with her, but that discrepancy was so jarring and just goes to show that Hoyo really needs to check their shit when it comes to the casual, oblivious misogyny in a lot of their dialogue.

With Candace, despite Hoyo being really stingy with her screentime, she more than makes up for it in her unlockable Character Stories, which delve deeper into her role as Guardian of Aaru Village and how that’s affected her. Aside from her aforementioned moment of wisdom where she took up the role of Guardian after learning the truth and took a more authentic approach to it than her predecessors, the process afterwards wasn’t handed to her on a silver platter either. She wasn’t exempt from backlash or people disagreeing with her decisions and policies, especially former Guardians, and even clashed blades with them over it at times. Even when she wasn’t fighting threats to the Village, she still tried to be there for people and even extended her kindness to people who didn’t have any other connections, like Nefer. Her stories also mention her not being immediately judgmental against people who seemed to be “slackers” or physically struggling in general, instead trying to be kind and understanding in the hopes of uplifting them. And in a game where even the main character constantly judge and condemn laziness in an ableist fashion, it’s really nice to see a character who explicitly doesn’t do that and genuinely looks out for the vulnerable in her community. I also like that despite not caring about the whole King Deshret thing being a lie, she hasn’t told anyone yet just because it makes her job easier when she needs to, say, get the entire village’s attention during an emergency and honestly? I like that motivation for keeping a long-buried secret so much more than “People will find out I’m not that great :(“ that characters like this tend to be saddled with. Candace honestly comes off as one of the better-written leadership characters in the game for me, because even after facing stubborn backlash from the people she’s meant to be protecting and having her worldview challenged, she’s still able to find reasons to keep protecting them and find a more genuine approach to being Guardian. Though it’s not without its problems, which I’ll get into below.

Their treatment by the Traveler, other characters and the Game in general

I’ve actually mentioned this in scattered posts in the past, but there’s one thing I’ve always taken issue with when it comes to Dehya’s treatment by the Traveler and Paimon in-game. It’s how she trusted them enough during the Sumeru Archon Quest to open up about the agony she feels because of the Wall of Samiel and the way desert-dwellers are stereotyped and treated even by other Sumerians…and they still end up judging people based on stereotypes, including desert-dwellers, not helped by how this can be played alongside Jeht’s world quest featuring the duo’s “agree to disagree” attitude towards Liloupar’s racism. One particularly bad example occurs in the Fungus event that canonically takes place after the Fontaine Archon Quest…which means at that point, the Traveler knows how bad the racism towards the Eremites are and how badly a few of their own friends are affected by it. And that still didn’t stop them from saying some weird shit about Haniyyah and go “The Eremites are invading!” when they see Souka. And it’s like…Dehya trusted them with one of her biggest vulnerabilities, and that still wasn’t enough for them to think about how that would affect her and others. It isn’t made better by how nice they are to her when they interact face to face, it’s still racist and disrespectful as fuck and if anything, makes them look two-faced. They can and should do better than that.

Aside from that, sometimes the two can be really weird about Dehya’s autonomy and boundaries despite her being shown countless times to be incredibly capable and an extremely quick thinker. There’s how she was automatically assumed to be acting reckless in that section of the Archon Quest when she’s talking with Rahman, and almost gets her plans busted when the other characters interrupt and go “what are you doing?!” leading to her legendary “Shut it, Paimon” line. At this point, the Traveler and co. had just seen her quick thinking and ability to plan around the way others act, so it was really weird for them to be like “you’re so reckless! How could you?!” And there’s how during the “rescue Nahida” operation, when she uncomfortably declines a massage from Paimon, instead of backing off the latter goes “ooh are you ticklish?”….which takes place after she accidentally triggered Collei by touching her without consent in the same Archon Quest. And thing is, after how regretful they’d been towards Collei for that, that should’ve carried over to Dehya not wanting to be touched but it’s treated like it doesn’t matter. Thankfully, in both cases Dehya stands pretty firm on her boundaries, but with the way they’ve just brushed off other (especially white) characters’ genuine recklessness while still not doubting their capabilities, and made a huge deal about Collei being triggered by touching but then won’t empathize with Dehya being uncomfortable…it felt so wrong when they did this with her.

With Candace, not only does she get the “nice and reliable and ideal personality” bs that a lot of Genshin’s women are subjected to, but what makes it worse is how little concern both the narrative and most of the characters seem to show for her. I’ve also griped about this in other posts, but it’s so weird that her duty of keeping Aaru Village safe and a violence-free zone is glossed over as “yeah, that’s cool I guess” despite being a massive responsibility, requiring her to regularly tough out even monsters several times her size and sandstorms (those are much more dangerous than they look!). And the game never tries going in depth about the toll this would take on her…despite actively showing how she’s constantly on such high alert that she can’t bring herself to leave the village without a lot of convincing, and how it’s driven her to attack without asking questions first at times (like Dehya’s Demo). At least when (white) characters are overworked in Mondstadt, the Traveler or people around them show some kind of concern or praise them as amazing and special (TM) good people. Candace? Aside from the concerning lack of people asking if she’s alright despite being surrounded by an entire village and even having friends beyond Sumeru, her hard work is treated like “oh yeah that’s just what Candace was born to do, that’s just the way it is, it’s whatever.” Like, would it be the end of the world to have someone thank her, asks her if she’s alright or something each time she comes on screen?? Whenever other characters talk about her, it’s about what she does for them and how she puts her feelings aside for their sake (Doesn’t that sound similar to how another kind-hearted brown character is treated in this game?) but rarely any of that in return for her. The character that shows the most consistent concern and care for her is Dehya (the only other darker-skinned woman in the Sumeru cast), who tries to get her into hobbies she can pass the time with even in the desert and tries to prevent conflicts before they happen so Candace would have less to stress over. But the narrative has done very little to remedy this over the years, and it’s not helped by how she doesn’t even get any Hangouts in an era where four-stars were still getting them, or even much time in limited events unless she’s accompanying another character. (Also…did I mention that she was appointed the position at eight years old [I’m completely serious, read her Character Story 1] and had been dealing with adult-level conflicts since then??? I feel like that shouldn’t have been as glossed over as it was)

Even in her lore, her title as Guardian and duty to protect Aaru village isn’t treated with the awe that, say, the big legacy names in Mondstadt’s duties are, cause it’s not nearly as exciting for fandom when she’s not privileged white nobility. Even when her standing up to her elders’ stubborn ways and even got them to shut up and stop doubting her was what earned her a Vision. Even when we get insight on how this affects the way she views herself or her ability to properly rest during peacetime. Even when we see that she had to work for her position even after being sworn in as Guardian, as her lore mentions how much people (especially elders) pushed back against her and some of her decisions, and how she still did her best to help villagers who struggled physically/mentally and did it with tact instead of assuming the worst and jumping to discipline. Even with how her worldview was challenged upon given the title of being Guardian, yet she still picked up her spear and protected the village anyway because in her mind, she wanted to protect what she held dear regardless of motivation from a god. All that is really impressive, and it would be really nice if other characters, even NPCs were more appreciative of it or sang her more genuine compliments instead of “that’s just what we expect out of Candace.”

The way the fandom treats them (and other darker-skinned female characters)

When it comes to fandom treatment, a lot of times it’s a similar issue to how most of the “likeable” women tend to be treated: laser-focus on how “nice and reliable” they are or could be and never think further about it. Dehya and Candace are both shown to be extremely kind, not just in different ways but with their own depth and conflicts to it too. In Dehya’s case especially, her kindness is the very reason why she gets so worked up over the mistreatment of others and will go to bat for them - kindness and assertiveness are not separate entities! But the fandom often treats them like they’re mutually exclusive and over focus on one of those traits, but not the other. I’ve also seen digs at how bad both their kits are (despite being workable with a bit of effort), and about how sexualized/out of focus they are (which are legitimate criticisms) and…that’s pretty much it. It’s like they’re often remembered for negative reasons while their positive and interesting traits get far less spotlighted in fan works compared to the rest of the Sumeru cast, and even when fans critique their treatment, I don’t see a lot of effort into calling out anything other than the sexualization/lack of focus they get by the loudest parts of the fandom even though that stuff is barely scratching the surface. Which made me think about patterns in how darker-skinned women in Genshin tend to be treated in general, and a lot came out of it which I’ve decided to share.

Whenever the fandom talks about the misogyny, the conversation always seems to revolve around the same 3 playable white characters and maybe like one from Liyue or Inazuma they really like, and almost never extends past that even though it goes a lot deeper than that. Like how recently I talked about how despite all the women get the short end of the stick when it comes to Hoyo’s writing, white female characters tend to get uplifted at the expense of racialized characters - which even seems to hold true in fandom discussions of the game’s misogyny. And one way it manifests is in how darker-skinned female characters often get left out of these conversations beyond maybe one surface-level observation (they’re oversexualized/out of focus), and when it comes to noticing subtleties in the messages sent by the game, the way these ladies are treated doesn’t even pop up like it does for, say, Jean or Lisa, who often end up as the poster girls for these discussions.

Aside from what I mentioned above for Dehya and Candace, there’s the way Xinyan gets digs taken at her for her appearance, and it’s hidden behind “oh her hobbies are what’s off putting” when this isn’t done at all for the paler Liyueans who have canonically off-putting hobbies, like Hu Tao.

Then there’s how Xilonen, one of a few Natlanese characters who has tanned or darker skin, often gets jabbed at for being lazy or a slacker despite proving time and time again that she’s just so good at her job that she’s able to carve out a lot of free time at nobody’s expense. Especially after the Traveler and Paimon have had endless sympathy for years towards lighter-skinned women and their capacity for overworking themselves, it’s like…shouldn’t you be happy that a woman is actually setting boundaries with her work for once? I’ve mentioned this before with Kaeya, but stereotyping darker-skinned people as lazy is rooted in colorism even in the context of Chinese cultures, so it should’ve never made it into version 6.1 after fans were so loud about the colorism problems Natlan had even before its release.

It’s in how Iansan, a character who was hyped up for over four years and was even one of the Six Heroes of Natlan, got shafted in focus and screentime when she finally debuts properly compared to the other five. Then when her homeland is finally placed on the map, potentially giving her a chance to shine…Varesa debuts and immediately becomes the face of the Collective of Plenty over her. Not only was this such a disappointment for a character many fans had been looking forward to for years, but she actually does stand out amongst her people with how she had to train for her strength in a world where people were basically born with it, but the game never does anything meaningful with that and continues to shaft her story. And to make things worse, the 5.6 Whirling Waltz event even makes a tasteless joke at her expense for no reason at all. She deserves so much better.

It even extends to the treatment of historical characters, like Vennessa. We first get to see in the manga, which established the hardships she went through to founding the Knights of Favonius and being its first Grand Master. While it’s meant to be a part of Venti’s backstory as a whole, she still manages to stand on her own. Unfortunately, that respect is not extended to her in the present day and in-game content. She’s only mentioned there in an overly-idealized image, and in the context of uplifting a white woman’s story and good image. Worst part is, she doesn’t even get acknowledged in Natlan content - which is so weird because that’s where her people, the Muratans hailed from. It’s all about what she did for Mondstadt and the mainly white cast there, which looks even worse in the context of how they’re basically doing the same thing again with a brown, immigrant character there in the present day.

It’s such a shame cause all these characters, especially Candace and Dehya, have such interesting aspects to them but don’t get treated with the respect they deserve whether it’s from the game or the fandom. And it’s like…some of these storylines actually address things that the Traveler and Paimon have been concerned about in the past, especially when it comes to white characters, but it’s like they suddenly don’t care when it’s attached to a darker-skinned woman all of a sudden. I’m not too sure on how to conclude this since it’s really long at this point, but I hope this shed some light on the more interesting aspect of these characters as well as how weird the treatment around them can get. I do have a lot more to say about Candace and Dehya (and all the other ladies I mentioned above) that wouldn’t fit into the rest of this post, but I’ll be sure to talk about them in the future.

[ashesofdawn]

I think responding to the issue of how badly Kaeya gets treated/shafted in content with “Give him more Khaenri’ah-related plotlines!” or “make him royalty!” misses the overarching issue at hand: how Kaeya himself isn’t valued or treated as worthy of respect by other characters or the narrative, and regardless of how involved he is in the story or whether the content is in Mondstadt or Khaenri’ah. And how much more insidious that is because of his marginalized identity both in and out of the game.

I point out how disrespected Kaeya tends to be when it comes to Mondstadt-related content a lot, and how fucked up it is that entire cast gets treated like the nicest found family (TM) at his expense over the past five years. But thing is, Hoyoverse and the fanbase have not been that different when it came to content about his Khaenri’ahn roots either. I talk a lot about how Kaeya’s feelings or how he might be affected by anything are almost never considered when it comes to anything in Mondstadt, but it’s not like that’s done for his nation of birth whenever they remember to give him content for it.

A glaring example would be in the Caribert Quest, where Kaeya tells the Traveler and Paimon about his Khaenri’ahn heritage. Which as we know by that point, is a key part of his vulnerabilities and got him attacked the last time he tried that with someone, so it’s a pretty big deal. The Traveler remains focused on their precious answers (“Khaenri’ah…”/“Speaking of Khaneri’ah…how much do you know about it?”) even though their close friend just confided in them about being a refugee/survivor of an ongoing genocide of his people (and they know this since this takes place after Requiem Echoing in the Depths), and he doesn’t even get a “you alright?” or anything else that would consider his feelings on the matter because that’s not important to those precious answers and lore. Then when Dainsleif shows up and reveals that an Alberich founded the Abyss Order, they’re so quick to become suspicious of Kaeya being involved and still have no regard for his well-being after a lot of heavy, personal things about him were dropped, some without his consent??? I don’t blame him for leaving as quickly as he could. I’ve talked about how dehumanized Khaenri’ah and its people get by all the lore and theory chasing, and this was another way it happened. And this came right after they spent the intro calling him crafty, suspecting him of playing a prank, and scolding him for being irresponsible towards Jean completely unwarranted…really not helping their case.

Then later on, the Traveler sees a memory that reveals that Chlothar founded the Abyss Order after being desperate enough to find anything, anyone who would be able to save his only family, and essentially had his vulnerabilities taken advantage of by…someone who we later learn is Dainsleif’s brother. Which makes how quick Dain was to reveal that Kaeya’s ancestor founded the Abyss Order look hypocritical, and the game does nothing to acknowledge that discrepancy…when I say Kaeya gets absolutely no respect from the white Khaenri’ahn characters and that the colorism towards him doesn’t vanish in Khaenri’ah content, this is what I’m talking about. This would actually be something important for the Traveler to tell Kaeya, they’ve been friends for years after all…but they don’t do that. Nor do they tell him about another descendant, Caribert, being a hopeful soul who just wanted others to be happy just like Kaeya does. And what makes it so much worse is that Kaeya spent so much of his life believing that he wasn’t a good person, and the world constantly sent messages to him about how he’d never escape his family’s shady past…only for said family to not have totally evil motives or even absolute autonomy in the matter for the most part. Telling him would’ve lifted a huge weight off his shoulders, and provided a chance for the Traveler to show how much of a good friend they can be towards him and reciprocate his kindness…nope. Acting “holier than thou” towards Kaeya is the thing we should be focusing on in Traveler-Kaeya interactions, amirite. How he feels about something so heavy can’t possibly be taking a toll on him as long as the Traveler and audience can get their precious lore and answers. /s Doesn’t help that they still have moments of suspicion or scolding Kaeya for his morals after this, which…your friend is literally dealing with the aftermath of a 500-year-long traumatic event with barely any support, you’re in no place to judge him, no amount of that would’ve been appropriate until maybe after you acknowledge and even apologize for your preconceived notions of him first. He deserves that at the very least.

What about in other content? The other Khaenri’ah-adjacent character in his vicinity, Albedo…their earliest and most well known “interaction” if you can call it that is him drawing everyone else nicely, then drawing Kaeya with only a circle and an eyepatch. Yet another character showing Kaeya that everyone thinks he’s “off” or “different” and will treat him as such…yippee. Even if that wasn’t the original intent, when it’s stacked up with all the ways other Mondstadters have treated Kaeya differently from the rest of the crew it looks so much worse than if it had just been Albedo doing it. And the fandom thinks Kaeya deserved it for being a “liar”. And after that? Albedo continues being snarky towards him with the only times he’s positive being…when it’s about something Kaeya can do for him or others. God damn it. And once again, Kaeya is the one who has the standout behavior in this dynamic - while everyone else describes Albedo as an untouchable genius, Kaeya highlights his charm and ability to get along with others in his quote about him. This extends to how considerate he is about getting him a gift as well: rather than something sciency or stereotypical for a researcher, Kaeya remembers how much Klee means to Albedo and gets them a gift with a matching set. Kaeya is consistently humanizing towards Albedo (which also means a lot when you recall how Albedo desires to fit in with and understand humanity), but we do not get to see Albedo reciprocate that with Kaeya.

On top of that, we never get to see how Kaeya feels about Irmin when we find out more about the guy. Irmin being the regent responsible for a lot of Kaeya’s current pain and trauma - not only for his role in starting the Cataclysm, but also as someone whose family had to pick up the pieces after Irmin’s rule collapsed. Not to mention it was that Cataclysm that made Kaeya unable to grow up in his homeland no matter how much he wanted to. Same with Rhinedottir, one of the frontrunners of the Cataclysm who’s getting much more focus with the Hexenzirkel and Sinners gaining more plot visibility. Or the other Sinners, one of which again, was responsible for his emotionally vulnerable ancestor’s creation of the Abyss Order. Or Capitano, who was not only with an organization that Kaeya’s directly clashed with in the past, but also performed a lot of heroic deeds without thanks and recognition and has the same style of bladework that he does??? C’mon.

Though it’s also worth noting that if Kaeya meets other Khaenri’ahn characters, I’d like to see their dynamics develop and be fleshed out rather than “we’re from the same country, we instantly get along!” I really hate that one cliche, mainly because I’ve faced it in the form of a microaggression in the west (“You have to know *insert Chinese or East Asian person* right?? No? I think you’ll like each other right away!”) and it essentially treats people from one nation/continent like a monolith or like they all must think the same, which…ugh. Look, two people being from the same birth nation might not have to deal with certain cultural barriers while interacting with each other, but it does not mean the interaction will go smoothly or they’ll instantly vibe. People who come from the same countries/cultural backgrounds still have to get to know each other, build trust, and solve conflicts, and yes, that includes all the effort that goes into that stuff. No amount of fewer cultural barriers makes a relationship suddenly not need any of that. And the Khaenri’ahns we’ve seen all have distinct personalities and backgrounds, particularly Kaeya and Arlecchino - they all would still have to put in the work in their one-on-one interactions. But tbh, that’s much more interesting that expecting them to instantly get along anyway.

And the thing is…of all people who could be involved in the Khaenri’ah plotline, Kaeya’s feelings and perspective should be among the most important and prioritized. He isn’t just someone with a vague connection to Khaenri’ah who wasn’t affected by any of its affairs at all - he’s a direct descendant of one of the surviving families of the Cataclysm. A family with one of the most well-known names (Alberich) both in the past and the present for Khaenri’ah. His existence also implies that the curse isn’t permanent/has a clause, and whether he already knows or will find out later on…that’s some shit that he would have some massive feelings over. He got hyped up as “our last hope” for Archons’ sake. We can tell all this has taken a toll on him from how it manifests in his secretive, sometimes even off-putting behavior since his very childhood…but let’s just blame it on him being an anti-hero or suspicious based on a bunch of people pleasers’ standards rather than do the uncomfortable work of acknowledging how fucked up it is that one person had to deal with all that with little to no support, and that anyone in his shoes would’ve probably had a much worse reaction multiple times over than what we’ve seen out of him. Giving Kaeya more Khaenri’ah, or even any other nation’s content, would only work out if he’s being valued for more than what he can do, and his feelings are treated with just as much importance as anyone else’s.

[ashesofdawn]

Does genshin fandom treat female characters differently from male? For example, it seems on Tumblr, male characters are loved more and asked for more.

Yeah there’s a difference alright. Though there’s a lot more to it than just “male vs female characters” and that often gets buried in the sexism/misogyny discussions, and often brings to light a lot of biases that I’m not sure if people are even aware they have. Also, while it’s been stated and noticed that male and female characters get treated differently in the fandom…it’s often left at just that, and the “how did we get here” or “what causes this” barely gets touched no matter how much the problem itself is stated. I actually went into a bit of a thought spiral about this which made this response longer than I’d expected, so here goes.

For example, I’ve seen female characters be more likely to be called “bland” or written off as one-note regardless of their circumstances or anything they have in canon. Which is funny because there’s plenty of (especially white) male characters who have been hyped up but really do not live up to the amount/kind of hype they’ve received (like Albedo and Varka for instance), and they’re automatically treated like Teyvat’s most interesting characters anyway. There’s also this pattern that a lot of people have noticed at this point, where Hoyoverse keeps taking the same path with their female characters no matter how much of a rich history/lore they have going on - make sure she turns out to be nice, reliable, and most of all, appealing to the otakus in the audience (TM). And more often than not, the “nice and reliable” part completely overshadows everything else about them in the game, which is something that tends not to happen to male characters even if they do turn out to have kindness as a strong trait (i.e. Flins). While I get people lowering their expectations of how female characters will be handled because of this pattern, it’s not an excuse to decry every woman Hoyo writes as “bland” and never give them a chance. Like, all that stuff hidden in their lore or genuinely unique depths to their personality? If you like certain female characters, try looking for and highlighting all the things you like about them. And actually look for traits that don’t go back to “nice and reliable to the player character” or the stuff prioritized for the otaku audience (I.e. the Mond ladies’ tired pattern of people pleasing and the lack of acknowledgment for how dangerous it would be in their line of work). Because if most of what the fandom’s vocal about is how “nice and reliable” a lot of the popular female characters are, whether you like it or not, it’s going be viewed as that thing everyone wants and the problem just lingers instead of being resolved.

For example, Xinyan can tell a lot about someone’s personality/feelings by how they react to her music, and even in spite of all the difficulties she’s faced directly because of her love and dedication to rock-and-roll, she always comes back to it because it’s her chosen passion, and what makes her happy. Even if she isn’t necessarily a big player in the big lore plot (TM) of Teyvat, for me at least, her presence is just as important because sometimes I don’t need a theory sink, I just want to watch this sweet girl grow her supportive friend circle and succeed in her rock-and-roll dreams someday. It’s actually a nice break from all the high stakes and occasionally demoralizing plotlines. Arguably stuff like this is needed because without breather moments that show how full of life Teyvat is, a constantly dark conspiracy plot can actually burn players out and make them less invested.

Another thing that I feel like goes hand-in-hand with the pattern of how Genshin’s ladies often turn out is how the fandom tends to react to explicitly heroic, but “difficult” female characters. I’ve been over this when it comes to characters like Ningguang, Sayu, and Furina, who aren’t the stereotypical nice, bubbly, and instantly full of praise for the Traveler. I’ve gone into detail about it in the thing I linked, but I’m just saying…if over the years of Genshin’s runtime, there’s a consistent pattern of knee-jerk reactions to heroic female characters who don’t just hang on the Traveler’s attention all the time or have an attitude that requires approaching them with actual care and critical thought…is it any surprise that even the anti-heroic or antagonistic female characters who become playable eventually get the “pleasant for the Traveler to be around” treatment? Especially just to avoid how bad the backlash was towards so many of these girls when they were first introduced, especially Furina?

There’s also a pattern I’ve noticed of white/pale female characters getting uplifted or avoiding criticisms by the game/fandom at the expense of characters of color, and yep, that includes the male characters too. It’s most noticeable in Kaeya due to the environment he’s in (like who he’s surrounded by) and because of how he’s one of the earliest released characters, our introduction to him being all the way back in the 2018 manga. How does it manifest?

It’s in how in fan content, Kaeya often has to be “set straight” by a “moral, nice, responsible” white woman - I’ve seen this play out in stuff where he’s with Lumine, Jean, Lisa, Amber, Rosaria, Barbara, Adelinde, etc. and especially if it’s to push him to reconcile with Diluc or to force him to embrace their help and love (TM). They can even say some really degrading shit to him (calling him an idiot) or act like his boundaries don’t even exist (i.e. Jean or Barbara forcing him to be monitored by someone he doesn’t trust for “his own safety” particularly right after a traumatic event, why is that such a common element in these stories), and more often than not it’ll still end up with him apologizing to them for “making them sad”. Even if the other character does apologize to him, he’s still made to go “no, I was worse, I made you upset”. It doesn’t matter if it was for “his own good”, they still crossed someone’s boundaries and that kind of stuff should never be treated lightly. And yes, that includes if they’ve been nice about it. Their actions are still more often than not glossed over quickly after that, while Kaeya is still the one who has to actively work on his shortcomings - in other words, he’s once again the one dealing with most, if not all the brunt of the consequences in a bad situation.

It’s how he often gets flak from the fandom for “wronging” some “uwu innocent” white female character even when he doesn’t live up to how “bad/anti-heroic” he was presented as, or was properly called out and got consequences while the other characters didn’t even when they showed the same capacity for being flawed/fucking up. I’ve had this discussion about how he gets wrongfully seen as making things harder for Jean before, and how despite being one of the few visibly shown doing a lot to help her, he still gets flak by the Traveler and fandom for “slacking” and “being Klee’s accomplice” while the others are never called out for their complicity in Jean’s situation (Amber, Rosaria, Lisa calling Jean an “inspiration” actually exacerbates her self-worth problems for instance). But where it often comes up too was in the manga incident with Collei. Almost everyone sides with Amber because “he treated her like a rookie!” and gave him shit for fighting Collei even though he was literally doing his job, to the point where I’ve seen people making derogatory jokes about how “it was the only time he ever did his job, he slacks off until it’s time to mess with people lol”. Let’s say that he really did fuck up as badly as the fandom made him out to in that situation…and even then, it falls apart instantly because not only is does he get called out in-manga for his attitude, multiple times in fact, and his behavior is not glossed over one bit (to the point where Amber can still say shit behind Kaeya’s back in the game’s debut, and Diluc can casually make comments about how untrustworthy Kaeya is), but there’s never any callouts of Amber having some really messed up behavior in that same webcomic, by the fandom or the other characters. There’s no mention of how the whole “rookie” thing was something SHE assumed after being disrespected by a snobby noble, then after Kaeya nicely told her he didn’t need help at the moment. There’s no mention of how her attitude towards him started before she met Collei, got to persist without being called out, and how her inability to take “no” for an answer for the sake of proving her worth would give Kaeya (who, by the way, doesn’t know her well at this point) even less of a reason to place his trust in her. And her moments with Collei are often muddled with how often she ignores her boundaries and touches her/gets all up in her space without permission - which is not only a really common and distressing form of ableism but is even worse when you remember how triggered Collei is by touching, and yet it’s overwhelmingly treated as some sweet or helpful way to Collei’s cold heart brought on by that special someone (TM). Amber never has to learn anything from any of this, the entire arc is about uplifting her and presenting her as right all along (TM) while Kaeya and Collei both end up having to learn from her, and both feel some kind of remorse or unease over what happened on their end. But Amber’s still praised as being so wholesome (TM) by the fandom, while Kaeya’s still the one who got shit on for years (to the point where I saw so many fancomics around the time of Collei’s debut depicting her as being terrified of him and him getting a rise out of it) because the fandom never lived down that moment where he “irredeemably wronged” two innocent (TM) light-skinned girls.

It’s in how when Kaeya’s consistently been shown to do things for these characters that a genuinely kind and supportive friend would, it’s still not enough for some people to regard him more positively or less suspiciously. And not only do these characters tend not to return that energy unintentionally or not, but the fandom will take maybe one moment of small praise these characters have towards Kaeya and instantly give them the benefit of the doubt that “he’s sooooo loved!” Look, if Kaeya can show up for these characters while not sticking to the bare minimum, and do it for almost everyone he knows to the point of being the guy all of Mond goes to for conflict resolution, just maybe the bar should be higher for what he gets from his relationships with them too. (Here’s a post that sums up why it’s messed up to constantly show a poc uplifting other, especially white characters without having it returned with the same energy, it’s a good read)

Kaeya’s the most prominent example where this happens since he gets a lot of content, and because he’s explicitly a poc in a heavily white setting. This happens in other settings too, such as how Ifa’s often overlooked in favor of Chasca by both the game and the fandom, despite both of them being Flower-Feather Clan members who had an important role in Natlan’s war arc. But I haven’t seen much on the same level as Kaeya’s treatment with them. Even then, that’s because the fandom is a lot more critical of Chasca than they are with the female characters from Mondstadt, and more likely to write her off as “bland” compared to them even though a lot of them have barely developed past the same old overachieving, legacy and following some moral path, while Chasca did have arcs where her character moves forward, and even manages to empathize with and befriend Benny and Ineffa post-development. Cyno also gets a lot of content where other (often light-skinned) characters treat him like he’s cringe for his jokes and TCG hobby (which also happens to Kaeya), including some of the Sumeru cast like Collei and Nilou. But again, it’s not on the same level as Kaeya’s because more often than not these characters are shafted rather than uplifted - Collei often gets reduced to a ward for Amber or Tighnari, and Nilou, like Chasca, is also often written off as bland and a generic nice girl when she fits neatly into Sumeru’s themes of wisdom and is actually capable of acknowledging her own shortcomings and working past them.

And not to mention how everyone who said “Mondstadt feels like home!” suddenly said it was cringe when the Natlanese ladies did their damndest to make the Traveler feel welcome just like in Mondstadt…almost like there’s a shift in perception of whose attention is considered valuable based on what irl cultures they’re from, huh? And the women in the “less desirable” one are cringey for doing the same thing a cast of mostly white women did at the beginning of the game. I still think there’s a lot of rightful criticisms for how instantly Natlan took to the Traveler, but then why didn’t the same criticisms get directed at Mondstadt even when it resulted in the Traveler participating in the same culture that has everyone sweep problems under the rug to keep some narrow-minded version of peace and never having to answer for it?? It’s true that while female characters in general tend to be shafted by the fandom, people-pleasing, “moral” white female characters tend to be treated like they’re above criticism or seen as more “human” at every racialized character’s expense, and at the expense of “difficult” women and girls.

So yeah, while female characters are more likely to be written off as bland in general, especially compared to male characters…it’s very risky to treat all of Genshin’s women/girls and their fandom reception as a monolith in this issue. It’s affected by whether they get presented as “difficult”, whether they meet otakus’ standards for ideal women, and whether they’re white/pale. And it wasn’t helped by how a pattern in what Hoyoverse prioritizes in their female characters’ stories in general caused a lot of fans to assume a female character will be “bland” upon release without even attempting to read their lore (which at the end of the day is on the writing, which needs to do better). And it’s important to remember that the favoritism everyone’s familiar with mostly applies to the white/pale male characters at women’s/darker-skinned characters’ expense, so don’t just go “the fandom treats the male and female characters differently” and never think about it further.

[floweryflees]

This is interesting, the 'nice' and 'reliable' (traveller praising and following) aspect of female characters is what is prioritized by the game it seems, then their lore/backstory/personality is secondary, then fandom follows the trend of such treatment to female characters in turn (even when they are well-written first).

The most discomforting aspect about this is how boundary-breaking these types of characters are allowed to be (Lumine being part of the 'good girls' genuinely surprises me since she seems to be portrayed as the colder/emotionless twin by the fandom as a whole...). They are perceived by most narratives they are in as "nice", "pure", and going out of their way to help Kaeya, often portrayed as a problematic knight.

When the game introduces unconventional female characters (Skirk, Furina, Ningguang, etc...), the fandom's backlash makes the game sort of backtrack, in a way—making it put the interesting aspects of those female characters back into a "nice, reliable" box.

It's kind of like a snake eating its own tail. The more 'nice', 'fair', and hardworking female characters are wanted, praised, and put on a pedestal—the more they will be focused on by the game with those aspects on the forefront. The more "difficult" and "mean" female characters get disproportionate backlash, the more they will be toned down to fit the "nice, reliable girl box".

For racialized female characters, their niceness and self-lessness is automatically focused on (Dehya). There is also a slightly high level of sexualization compared to their paler female counterparts both in presentation, even attacks (Xilonen), and strangely—the backlash (often quite disproportionate) is often on them compared to their designer/creator (especially this part). They are often not very focused on in terms of lore or character, but at least there is often enough to infer.

If this has been the pattern for the past 4-6 years for many female characters, I wonder if there will ever be a true "anti-heroine" character of sorts (one with sharp edges), as they seem to lose interesting aspects of them in order for them to be made playable and marketable compared to their male counterpart...maybe the Tsaritsa or Rhinedottir could take a different turn this time.

For racialized male characters, there is always this aspect of mockery and ridicule accompanying them, especially when it comes to their hobbies, what they like, and their habits. It's often overblown and overrated, making it just meanspirited jokes against them in the narratives they are in. They are also often seen as suspicious and harboring some secret evil plot or more likely to be a traitor to the traveller with little to no proof.

You also mentioned an interesting aspect of this discourse, that pale male characters are still treated as interesting and worth looking into even they do not deliver in terms of character, backstory, and lore (, also I didn't think you thought of Albedo and Varka—fandom favourites, as such since I rarely see you mention them) . In a way, the fandom seems to perceive it as Hoyo having failed them, and something that needs fixing—while, for female (especially racialized) characters the fault is often put on the character itself (most especially the design) and just left at that.

Maybe the reason for why it is this way for female characters in Genshin impact is due to the backlash which might otherwise occur if "unconventional" female characters were developed without toning down. This makes me wonder what the reception of a female character similar to Kaeya could be like.

Sorry if this is just me repeating myself. Just found this extremely thought-provoking.

[ashesofdawn]

Eve feel bad for subject two/Susbedo?

(This might come off as disjointed cause I was a bit tired when I wrote this so apologies in advance)

Yeah, somewhat. I don’t condone his actions in the game proper, but I do think there was a lot that was glossed over by both the narrative and the fandom to focus on his envy for Albedo and reducing the conflict to just that. There was much, much more than the envy going on there, especially for someone like me who’s familiar with this kind of dynamic that Rhinedottir has with Albedo and Subject 2. Or Susbedo…did he even have a name?

The part that usually gets understood and addressed is how Susbedo felt resentment for being abandoned by Rhinedottir, and envy for how Albedo was able to integrate into Mondstadt when he was deemed a failure and believed he could never fit in even if he tried. Thus, he was driven to try and replace Albedo by taking up his appearance and killing him. But you know what doesn’t seem to be addressed? Albedo’s apathy towards how a lot of Rhine’s other creations, and by extension Susbedo, were treated by her. As her “perfect creation”, Albedo tends to see Rhine as someone who made some mistakes but ultimately tried, and tbh, that wouldn’t be much of an issue if he was her only creation or the others were similarly treated or given plans for their future, but as we know that’s not the case. It’s that thing where Genshin tries to write in middle-school level conflicts, then sticks them into situations with severely traumatizing/potentially world-ending stakes and expects the audience to just roll with it, and that’s what happened with Susbedo, who absolutely did not get even the barest minimum support that Rhine at least tried to prepare for Albedo. And that includes how Albedo treated him as well, which wasn’t much different from how Rhine did. Now, he wasn’t the one who abandoned S2 and left him to be swallowed by Dragonspine Durin, that part is true. But he absolutely did pick up on Rhine’s attitude towards him as one of her “failures” intentionally or not, and doesn’t deviate from it or even question it. He even calls him “Master’s Failed experiment in the dragon’s belly” at one point, same dehumanizing language that she used and very little thought for whether Subject 2 would hear him or feel anything about it. Susbedo not only had to watch someone from similar circumstances as him fit into human society with few issues, but watched him do it while being as dismissive of him as this “failed experiment” as Gold previously was. What really doesn’t help is how Albedo tends to elevate Rhine and see her behavior in a positive light, which can blindside him to consequences of her behavior towards those who weren’t as supported as he was. And once Susbedo finally shows himself, he’s treated like a problem to be dealt with rather than someone who can feel things by not only someone who was supposed to be his brother (and therefore someone who could’ve understood him or even could’ve been his ally), but by this random Traveler that Albedo met recently who instantly believed what he had to say and also saw Susbedo as a problem. Susbedo had no one and nothing to turn to, and that can really mess with the way you view the world. While it doesn’t absolve, you know, literally trying to kill someone and take over their life, there’s also that angle of never being sided with and having the golden child (hehe golden) of the family also participate in the very mentality that got him abandoned on a snowy mountain in the first place to really consider here.

Therein lies the second problem: that pattern of Mondstadt/Hexerei characters (barring a few exceptions like Kaeya) upholding some harmful societal/familial beliefs or rules, and never having to be challenged on them or face any real lasting consequences because Mond is so moral and good and praises the Traveler so much (TM). I’ve talked a lot about how badly this problem manifests in Varka, Jean, Diluc, Amber, Rosaria, etc…well what do you know, Albedo and Rhine have that issue as well, and though it was there since early in the game it really showed from Paralogism onwards.

We already learned previously how Rhine treated a lot of her creations (aka many of them were considered failures and abandoned), the havoc unleashed on all corners of Teyvat because of her various experiments and the multiple generations of trauma that resulted from that, and how isolated Albedo was under her tutelage. And yet…despite being considered one of the Sinners of Khaenri’ah, it feels like the worst of the consequences are bore by everyone but her (especially innocents caught in the crossfire), and therein lies the problem. She’s still a valued member of the Hexenzirkel and treated like an old friend who just “played around”, though considering the other members’ stances on things I guess it’s not too out of place. Even then, in Paralogism she’s still painted as “made some oopsies” or “she wasn’t that bad”, and while she does lament Dragonspine Durin’s fate…she still does it while holding onto the mentality that it was because he was flawed and thus a failure from the moment she created him. And wouldn’t you know it, that mentality was also the one that got Susbedo abandoned and swallowed up by Durin in the first place, she hasn’t really moved past it and no one who could has really pushed back against it, and even Albedo can see that. And she gets to ascend by eating the shade of life…yippee. Right alongside that is Albedo not only insisting that she wasn’t that bad, but also upholding a lot of her mentality whether it was intentional or not. Albedo…you know, the guy who Rhine didn’t abandon and paid the most attention to because he was deemed her perfect creation, and even then had the support of her best friends afterwards as well as the ability to fit the standards of a city that places a lot of emphasis on legacy and appearances. The guy who really should not be speaking on her behavior as a whole when he’s way more privileged than a lot of those involved in her shit, and the way she treated him was the exception, not the rule. It would be one thing if this narrow worldview was explored and treated like a genuine flaw (which would open up potential for incredible character development), but when he says that we’re just kinda expected to take his word for it, because Albedo is so smart, nice to the Traveler and befitting of Mondstadt (TM) so he MUST be a reliable narrator. /s He’s never challenged on that worldview by the Traveler or anyone else, nor does he get challenged on the way he talks about Susbedo, which isn’t that different from the way Rhine talks about most of her experiments and is meant to be agreed with because of how much the game treats Susbedo like a problem to be dealt with first and foremost. And with the way the other characters practically venerate Albedo and how he never has to really face consequences in-game for even the things that could be his flaws…yeah. With Rhinedottir, you could make the argument that she’s not meant to be seen as a morally sound character in the first place…but when it’s Albedo, someone presented as a much more nice, wise and worldly character who’s even a member of the playable cast, that’s where you need to address that flaw otherwise it’ll make him come across as less sympathetic than intended.

I get that when you’re looking in from an outside perspective, it’s easy to reduce the entirety of the conflict in there to “oh he was jealous”. But through the eyes of someone who’s been in such situations…there was likely also a shit ton of resentment for Albedo not only reinforcing a lot of Rhine’s attitudes and negative beliefs that got attributed to him, but the kind of positions Albedo and Rhine were in making it practically impossible for S2 to be believed or taken seriously if he ever tried saying how he really felt. Like, that’s the kind of shit certain teachers use to pit students against each other in school all the time, and oftentimes it’s the people pleasing kids who meet standards getting roped into helping enforce a lot of those toxic habits and shaming those who don’t meet said standards whether they realize it or not. Being way too familiar with that kind of crap, I had a hard time seeing this whole plot line as just “Susbedo was jealous that he didn’t get attention.”

At the same time, that’s not to say Susbedo’s pov was entirely sound or that he was never blindsided. Like I’ve discussed before, a lot of the times when Mondstadt shows love and admiration for someone, it tends to be for something very surface-level and puts the person on a superhuman pedestal, which might not be the kind of admiration S2 ends up reveling in when you really think about it (though to be fair the narrative is also pretty iffy about addressing that). Also, who says he has to be loved by Mondstadt specifically? It’s not the only place in Teyvat (though it says a lot about the kind of favoritism Mond gets by the game and fandom when it’s treated like failure to not be loved by the nation that’s ironically kinda judgmental, like in Eula’s story too). And he didn’t seem to think about how Albedo was still under some kind of pressure to achieve with how Rhine’s attention was on him, and other potential downsides if he’d managed to catch her eye with some kind of talent or something. I feel like that could’ve been expanded on a bit more if they didn’t treat Susbedo like just a problem for the good and moral (TM) playable cast to solve from the word go, it would even supplement his extreme actions, and emphasize how much he messed up in doing what he did while also being a good opening to address what kind of longstanding patterns in the family dynamic/society drove him to have that worldview in the first place. But that would require Albedo, Rhine (and the rest of the Hexenzirkel), and to an extent, the Traveler and the nice suburban town to be able to bear actual lasting consequences for their actions and we can’t have that here. /s

I might write a more detailed and less disjointed analysis on this later on just because of how tired I was when I finished this one, but TLDR: Was the jealousy a major factor in the way he acted? Yeah. Was there a lot of other shit going on that was just as important as that and shouldn’t have been as overlooked as it was? Also yeah.

[floweryflees]

This is greatly put. The effect of being perceived and treated as failed, broken, not even "in need of fixing" (though that's not even much better) are often treated like a nothing burger obstacle with no overarching consequences on the victim's (Like Dorian/Susbedo) psyche.

Behavior which might be attributed to the treatment and perception of that "troublemaker" or "troublesome" character is often used as proof by the fandom or game that [insert extremely traumatized character] is morally/inherently evil or "too far gone to be salvaged/saved.

Reasonable or justifiable reactions regarding the terrible or downright terrifying situations they are in are often seen in such a shallow, narrow-minded (to the "troublesome" character's lore, which might explain why they act the way they do), and often biased or one-sided—like they are only hearing out or considering one side of the story, in this case, the "good" character's side of the story (I often see this with Kaeya or Diluc situation/lore, often going as far as painting Kaeya as the one in the wrong/or in need of apologising/or begging for forgiveness).

To the game and fandom, a "good" character (conforming to Mondstat's ideals of extreme, egotistical, self-serving, and self-centered heroism) needs to quickly get over whatever issues they are dealing with (also confide, praise, and trust in the traveller, especially this—as soon as possible). They should also fit into the moral compass of the game, which in Mondstat, is often gaining a vision and becoming a knight to protect the nation.

[floweryflees]

Oh, I also want to add:

It might explain why so many supposedly "good" characters, by the games and fandom standards, with disturbing/questionable actions/morales/objectives are often rarely addressed/called out in the game so long as they are "morale" and "good" citizens. Most especially in Mondstat.

An example which fits this is Albedo's trial. There is never much shock, question, or implication about Albedo's character or views of what he deems, judges, or considers as deserving of life when he killed (hunting him down at that) Susbedo. Even when he went as far as saying that the person he had killed was not human, which is...with the way he puts it, as though it is reason enough—explicitly implying he did not consider Susbedo as "[deserving of consideration, with feelings, circumstances]", but definitely "[a regrettable, if not slightly fascinating failure—something to be dealt with]".

It is out of character for what Albedo is supposed to be hailed as by the game's narrative. Someone who creates and values creation. Like, they had left the story in which he and Susbedo had appeared with an ambiguous end, with it him even expressing empathy for Susbedo's situation. Going as far as saying that he would have done the same thing, even implying that he too might one day lose control.

...Not only that, but going as far as discarding him the same way Rhinedottir did after she considered him failed, which is especially contrary...considering he is supposed to be a "good" alchemist who supposedly values life. In the end, it really reads as him discarding a failed prototype.

The game and fandom treat it as though that was reason enough to just do so. The trial is also often never treated so seriously, at least never in regard to the life which had been taken by someone who supposedly values life.

[ashesofdawn]

This actually made me think about another character dynamic where this exact thing happened with the fandom’s treatment of the characters, except it wasn’t even in Mondstadt this time.

I’m talking about with Alhaitham and Kaveh.

Prior to Kaveh getting more development post-Parade of Providence, when it came to the dynamic and conflict between these two, people were quick to side with Kaveh and paint Alhaitham as “uncaring, cruel, and mean” because he not only refused to bend over backwards to appease Kaveh, but was also accused of “stressing him out” by making him angry all the time. And over time, a lot of the conflict was reduced to “Alhaitham is uncaring and lack empathy and that’s why he can’t understand Kaveh’s altruism, because being outwardly emotional MUST equate to emotional intelligence”, coupled by how Nahida’s voice lines about the two of them doubt how wise Alhaitham really is while praising Kaveh as having the most capacity for wisdom she’s ever seen. But even before the events of Parade of Providence…there’s a lot in the two’s portrayals that made it fall apart.

Alhaitham, the one stereotyped as “uncaring, mean, unempathetic” has been shown to the complete opposite since he debuted, long before Kaveh ever appeared. If I gave all the examples I’d make this excerpt too long, and I know that because I’ve discussed almost all of Alhaitham’s moments of emotional intelligence and compassion in a long post before. He also does all of these things without seeking praise or taking credit. While we know part of it is because he doesn’t want to draw attention to himself and make people seek him out, it makes him look genuinely humble and his kindness coming with very few, if any strings attached. Particularly towards vulnerable people in that society such as Shani, Ilyas, Isak, etc, where it really matters (also do you notice how the people he’s rude to are mostly classist Akademiya snobs or those who exploit the vulnerable? Think about that for a good minute before calling him “mean” again).

While we now know more about Kaveh and he’s been allowed to grow and develop positively since Parade of Providence…prior to that his portrayal really left a lot to be desired. He was meant to be one of the nicest people in Sumeru, and…he’s a people pleaser who overworks himself because of course Genshin would make another “good and moral” character like that. It wasn’t just those traits that bothered me though, his actions and attitude were genuinely off-putting and did little to convince me that he was the amazing, nice, and wise person Nahida and the fandom kept insisting he was. In the finale of the Archon Quest, his pushiness and insistence that Alhaitham was up to something rubbed me the wrong way, especially after Alhaitham casually dropped the truth of what had been happening with him and the Akademiya in the past week and he refused to believe him. As a result, Alhaitham’s pettiness towards him came off to me as him biting back at someone who wouldn’t stop pushing boundaries and wouldn’t even listen when he told the truth. This didn’t get better after Alhaitham’s Story Quest, where Kaveh acts essentially the same way and drops the line “At least I’d be a fungus with empathy!” as if it’s some kind of gotcha, and as if Alhaitham lacks empathy and he’s superior for having it. Assuming that lacking empathy inherently makes someone worse is not only extremely dehumanizing to think of someone, but using it to make yourself look better in comparison…right after Alhaitham was just shown helping someone escape a cult by empathizing with him? (I know Kaveh didn’t know that, but narrative-wise it did not help his case). I’ll admit that this was the reason he was one of my least favorite characters until after 3.6, and why I was miffed that this was the character the fandom was hyping up as Sumeru’s “nicest and wisest” after complaining about how “mean” the Sumeru cast (who are almost all just adults with normal boundaries mind you) had been.

Despite what was shown to us consistently pointing to Alhaitham as an emotionally intelligent and kind character, the depths were constantly ignored because he doesn’t fit the box of goodness a lot of the fandom shoves characters into. He doesn’t tolerate disrespect from anyone, not even the ones he cherishes most (including the Traveler). He’s not afraid to make people uncomfortable and that’s bad (TM), even though a lot of situations in Sumeru and Teyvat as a whole require you to sit with that discomfort to understand the whole picture. He doesn’t give two shits about the sanctity of society or whether he’ll look bad if he says something that disturbs the peace. He’s shown to be wrong and be able to fuck up, but like Kaeya he’s held accountable by other characters to the point it can get excessive at times. All of those things that would get him labeled as “difficult” and “mean”, especially compared to the people pleasing overworker who always gets heavily praised when it comes to the fandom. While they mitigated it from 3.6 onward by giving Kaveh moments where he was explicitly in the wrong and had to reflect and work on it, while making him and the other characters more inclusive and supportive of Alhaitham despite his bluntness, it started off as a familiar cycle that I was afraid would go in the same direction as these dynamics do in Mondstadt.

[floweryflees]

This actually seems to be is a recurring cycle in the game and fandom. Especially when it comes to characters who are "unconventional" do not bend over backwards for the traveller/the people around then or give them preferential treatment. Like, the game/fandom dislikes people who do not "hide their vices/aren't nice to an unhealthy point (people-pleasers).

This is also something I have also noticed in fan content. "Good" characters forcing their "help, care, and love" on Kaeya while being needlessly degrading to him specifically, calling him an idiot, suspicious, or in need of being knocked down a peg/forced into revealing himself for his arrogance/keeping to himself/boundaries???? Which is like... really?

Even when they do acknowledge the things Kaeya is put through just for existing and doing what he always does (wanting a peaceful, normal life—caring for others, watching out for them, always giving his best when it comes to Mondstat and its people) , they always frame it as his fault for not being nice, trusting, or morale enough is just— no wonder he does not trust much. Also, the amount of time his boundaries do not even seem to register to those who are supposedly his friends, most especially compared to Diluc (not that it does not happen to him of course, but is it ever as much as Kaeya, to the point that it makes up a good chunk of his content?)

Being perceived and treated the way Kaeya is, admired, sometimes feared, but also treated with great caution, disregard, and mockery often laced with surface-level compliments about how what you can do for people/useful you are is already damaging enough if that's all he ever gets. Like, there is always this "he is a [morally shady person, but at least he has a good work ethic is of use to others]" left unsaid but explicitly implied in the words and actions by "good characters". Not many ever put his good qualities/actions on the spot/thank him—are understanding of him, or ever give him any second chances when he messes up. Just always and mostly about what he can do for them or how troublesome or suspicious he is (often in a tone of mockery/"jest")

The boundaries of these type of characters, who like to keep to themselves, are honest, and have clear intentions, and do not bow to people around them or traveller—are often violated, ignored, mocked (???), and also used as proof of how "[morally questionable, suspicious, and lacking they are in their humanity]". And this mostly happens when they rightfully refuse to keep the peace, do go against the mold to protect what they cherish (Furina's archon, social mask, I think? Even if it puts her in a terrible spot in which she experiences people's anger, frustrations, and ire with her first place, first hand—especially traveller's), or refuse to pull the rug under a serious problem. Yet, "good" characters complicit in the vulnerable situation/position in which these types of "bad" characters assists them in are often never called out for their quiet complicity (going so far as participating in it in some cases). Also, quiet complicity often even being an option in-game (Traveller not ever really taking a stance against the racist/classist akademiya professor who was spouting those words towards their friend).

No matter how many times it has been shown in-game that the so-called "unemotional, unempathetic, or mean" character to be quite tactful, caring in their own way, and often cares for those who are in a vulnerable position (like you mentioned for Kaeya in your post, I think about his "That Guy" quest or commission?). In the end, they will be viewed negatively by the fandom and game. The game/fandom will allow for a lot of questionable action/characteristic by "good" characters expect "criticising and calling out" being mean, never be that assert your boundaries in Genshin world if you want don't want even more problems traveller trying to ""heal/fix"" you with their ""love and kindness"", some type of mocking/denigrating nickname, or more trauma (Furina's and Skirk's case)".

When they are female characters, the pattern of treatment shifts. They are called some other much more denigrating term for not being "nice", "welcoming", or "smiley" all the time if they are—always expected to be warm, pliant, and docile after the traveller has "cracked their shell". (Sayu, Skirk, Furina). Or they are often known as "ice queens" or "unladylike" in-game (Ningguang). Which makes way for dehumanizing admiration or correcting for them by traveller (the correction) or some NPCs/good characters (the admiration).

This was a very good point, apologies if what I said sounds just like repeating myself.

[ashesofdawn]

Eve feel bad for subject two/Susbedo?

(This might come off as disjointed cause I was a bit tired when I wrote this so apologies in advance)

Yeah, somewhat. I don’t condone his actions in the game proper, but I do think there was a lot that was glossed over by both the narrative and the fandom to focus on his envy for Albedo and reducing the conflict to just that. There was much, much more than the envy going on there, especially for someone like me who’s familiar with this kind of dynamic that Rhinedottir has with Albedo and Subject 2. Or Susbedo…did he even have a name?

The part that usually gets understood and addressed is how Susbedo felt resentment for being abandoned by Rhinedottir, and envy for how Albedo was able to integrate into Mondstadt when he was deemed a failure and believed he could never fit in even if he tried. Thus, he was driven to try and replace Albedo by taking up his appearance and killing him. But you know what doesn’t seem to be addressed? Albedo’s apathy towards how a lot of Rhine’s other creations, and by extension Susbedo, were treated by her. As her “perfect creation”, Albedo tends to see Rhine as someone who made some mistakes but ultimately tried, and tbh, that wouldn’t be much of an issue if he was her only creation or the others were similarly treated or given plans for their future, but as we know that’s not the case. It’s that thing where Genshin tries to write in middle-school level conflicts, then sticks them into situations with severely traumatizing/potentially world-ending stakes and expects the audience to just roll with it, and that’s what happened with Susbedo, who absolutely did not get even the barest minimum support that Rhine at least tried to prepare for Albedo. And that includes how Albedo treated him as well, which wasn’t much different from how Rhine did. Now, he wasn’t the one who abandoned S2 and left him to be swallowed by Dragonspine Durin, that part is true. But he absolutely did pick up on Rhine’s attitude towards him as one of her “failures” intentionally or not, and doesn’t deviate from it or even question it. He even calls him “Master’s Failed experiment in the dragon’s belly” at one point, same dehumanizing language that she used and very little thought for whether Subject 2 would hear him or feel anything about it. Susbedo not only had to watch someone from similar circumstances as him fit into human society with few issues, but watched him do it while being as dismissive of him as this “failed experiment” as Gold previously was. What really doesn’t help is how Albedo tends to elevate Rhine and see her behavior in a positive light, which can blindside him to consequences of her behavior towards those who weren’t as supported as he was. And once Susbedo finally shows himself, he’s treated like a problem to be dealt with rather than someone who can feel things by not only someone who was supposed to be his brother (and therefore someone who could’ve understood him or even could’ve been his ally), but by this random Traveler that Albedo met recently who instantly believed what he had to say and also saw Susbedo as a problem. Susbedo had no one and nothing to turn to, and that can really mess with the way you view the world. While it doesn’t absolve, you know, literally trying to kill someone and take over their life, there’s also that angle of never being sided with and having the golden child (hehe golden) of the family also participate in the very mentality that got him abandoned on a snowy mountain in the first place to really consider here.

Therein lies the second problem: that pattern of Mondstadt/Hexerei characters (barring a few exceptions like Kaeya) upholding some harmful societal/familial beliefs or rules, and never having to be challenged on them or face any real lasting consequences because Mond is so moral and good and praises the Traveler so much (TM). I’ve talked a lot about how badly this problem manifests in Varka, Jean, Diluc, Amber, Rosaria, etc…well what do you know, Albedo and Rhine have that issue as well, and though it was there since early in the game it really showed from Paralogism onwards.

We already learned previously how Rhine treated a lot of her creations (aka many of them were considered failures and abandoned), the havoc unleashed on all corners of Teyvat because of her various experiments and the multiple generations of trauma that resulted from that, and how isolated Albedo was under her tutelage. And yet…despite being considered one of the Sinners of Khaenri’ah, it feels like the worst of the consequences are bore by everyone but her (especially innocents caught in the crossfire), and therein lies the problem. She’s still a valued member of the Hexenzirkel and treated like an old friend who just “played around”, though considering the other members’ stances on things I guess it’s not too out of place. Even then, in Paralogism she’s still painted as “made some oopsies” or “she wasn’t that bad”, and while she does lament Dragonspine Durin’s fate…she still does it while holding onto the mentality that it was because he was flawed and thus a failure from the moment she created him. And wouldn’t you know it, that mentality was also the one that got Susbedo abandoned and swallowed up by Durin in the first place, she hasn’t really moved past it and no one who could has really pushed back against it, and even Albedo can see that. And she gets to ascend by eating the shade of life…yippee. Right alongside that is Albedo not only insisting that she wasn’t that bad, but also upholding a lot of her mentality whether it was intentional or not. Albedo…you know, the guy who Rhine didn’t abandon and paid the most attention to because he was deemed her perfect creation, and even then had the support of her best friends afterwards as well as the ability to fit the standards of a city that places a lot of emphasis on legacy and appearances. The guy who really should not be speaking on her behavior as a whole when he’s way more privileged than a lot of those involved in her shit, and the way she treated him was the exception, not the rule. It would be one thing if this narrow worldview was explored and treated like a genuine flaw (which would open up potential for incredible character development), but when he says that we’re just kinda expected to take his word for it, because Albedo is so smart, nice to the Traveler and befitting of Mondstadt (TM) so he MUST be a reliable narrator. /s He’s never challenged on that worldview by the Traveler or anyone else, nor does he get challenged on the way he talks about Susbedo, which isn’t that different from the way Rhine talks about most of her experiments and is meant to be agreed with because of how much the game treats Susbedo like a problem to be dealt with first and foremost. And with the way the other characters practically venerate Albedo and how he never has to really face consequences in-game for even the things that could be his flaws…yeah. With Rhinedottir, you could make the argument that she’s not meant to be seen as a morally sound character in the first place…but when it’s Albedo, someone presented as a much more nice, wise and worldly character who’s even a member of the playable cast, that’s where you need to address that flaw otherwise it’ll make him come across as less sympathetic than intended.

I get that when you’re looking in from an outside perspective, it’s easy to reduce the entirety of the conflict in there to “oh he was jealous”. But through the eyes of someone who’s been in such situations…there was likely also a shit ton of resentment for Albedo not only reinforcing a lot of Rhine’s attitudes and negative beliefs that got attributed to him, but the kind of positions Albedo and Rhine were in making it practically impossible for S2 to be believed or taken seriously if he ever tried saying how he really felt. Like, that’s the kind of shit certain teachers use to pit students against each other in school all the time, and oftentimes it’s the people pleasing kids who meet standards getting roped into helping enforce a lot of those toxic habits and shaming those who don’t meet said standards whether they realize it or not. Being way too familiar with that kind of crap, I had a hard time seeing this whole plot line as just “Susbedo was jealous that he didn’t get attention.”

At the same time, that’s not to say Susbedo’s pov was entirely sound or that he was never blindsided. Like I’ve discussed before, a lot of the times when Mondstadt shows love and admiration for someone, it tends to be for something very surface-level and puts the person on a superhuman pedestal, which might not be the kind of admiration S2 ends up reveling in when you really think about it (though to be fair the narrative is also pretty iffy about addressing that). Also, who says he has to be loved by Mondstadt specifically? It’s not the only place in Teyvat (though it says a lot about the kind of favoritism Mond gets by the game and fandom when it’s treated like failure to not be loved by the nation that’s ironically kinda judgmental, like in Eula’s story too). And he didn’t seem to think about how Albedo was still under some kind of pressure to achieve with how Rhine’s attention was on him, and other potential downsides if he’d managed to catch her eye with some kind of talent or something. I feel like that could’ve been expanded on a bit more if they didn’t treat Susbedo like just a problem for the good and moral (TM) playable cast to solve from the word go, it would even supplement his extreme actions, and emphasize how much he messed up in doing what he did while also being a good opening to address what kind of longstanding patterns in the family dynamic/society drove him to have that worldview in the first place. But that would require Albedo, Rhine (and the rest of the Hexenzirkel), and to an extent, the Traveler and the nice suburban town to be able to bear actual lasting consequences for their actions and we can’t have that here. /s

I might write a more detailed and less disjointed analysis on this later on just because of how tired I was when I finished this one, but TLDR: Was the jealousy a major factor in the way he acted? Yeah. Was there a lot of other shit going on that was just as important as that and shouldn’t have been as overlooked as it was? Also yeah.

[floweryflees]

This is greatly put. The effect of being perceived and treated as failed, broken, not even "in need of fixing" (though that's not even much better) are often treated like a nothing burger obstacle with no overarching consequences on the victim's (Like Dorian/Susbedo) psyche.

Behavior which might be attributed to the treatment and perception of that "troublemaker" or "troublesome" character is often used as proof by the fandom or game that [insert extremely traumatized character] is morally/inherently evil or "too far gone to be salvaged/saved.

Reasonable or justifiable reactions regarding the terrible or downright terrifying situations they are in are often seen in such a shallow, narrow-minded (to the "troublesome" character's lore, which might explain why they act the way they do), and often biased or one-sided—like they are only hearing out or considering one side of the story, in this case, the "good" character's side of the story (I often see this with Kaeya or Diluc situation/lore, often going as far as painting Kaeya as the one in the wrong/or in need of apologising/or begging for forgiveness).

To the game and fandom, a "good" character (conforming to Mondstat's ideals of extreme, egotistical, self-serving, and self-centered heroism) needs to quickly get over whatever issues they are dealing with (also confide, praise, and trust in the traveller, especially this—as soon as possible). They should also fit into the moral compass of the game, which in Mondstat, is often gaining a vision and becoming a knight to protect the nation.

[floweryflees]

Oh, I also want to add:

It might explain why so many supposedly "good" characters, by the games and fandom standards, with disturbing/questionable actions/morales/objectives are often rarely addressed/called out in the game so long as they are "morale" and "good" citizens. Most especially in Mondstat.

An example which fits this is Albedo's trial. There is never much shock, question, or implication about Albedo's character or views of what he deems, judges, or considers as deserving of life when he killed (hunting him down at that) Susbedo. Even when he went as far as saying that the person he had killed was not human, which is...with the way he puts it, as though it is reason enough—explicitly implying he did not consider Susbedo as "[deserving of consideration, with feelings, circumstances]", but definitely "[a regrettable, if not slightly fascinating failure—something to be dealt with]".

It is out of character for what Albedo is supposed to be hailed as by the game's narrative. Someone who creates and values creation. Like, they had left the story in which he and Susbedo had appeared with an ambiguous end, with it him even expressing empathy for Susbedo's situation. Going as far as saying that he would have done the same thing, even implying that he too might one day lose control.

...Not only that, but going as far as discarding him the same way Rhinedottir did after she considered him failed, which is especially contrary...considering he is supposed to be a "good" alchemist who supposedly values life. In the end, it really reads as him discarding a failed prototype.

The game and fandom treat it as though that was reason enough to just do so. The trial is also often never treated so seriously, at least never in regard to the life which had been taken by someone who supposedly values life.

[ashesofdawn]

Eve feel bad for subject two/Susbedo?

(This might come off as disjointed cause I was a bit tired when I wrote this so apologies in advance)

Yeah, somewhat. I don’t condone his actions in the game proper, but I do think there was a lot that was glossed over by both the narrative and the fandom to focus on his envy for Albedo and reducing the conflict to just that. There was much, much more than the envy going on there, especially for someone like me who’s familiar with this kind of dynamic that Rhinedottir has with Albedo and Subject 2. Or Susbedo…did he even have a name?

The part that usually gets understood and addressed is how Susbedo felt resentment for being abandoned by Rhinedottir, and envy for how Albedo was able to integrate into Mondstadt when he was deemed a failure and believed he could never fit in even if he tried. Thus, he was driven to try and replace Albedo by taking up his appearance and killing him. But you know what doesn’t seem to be addressed? Albedo’s apathy towards how a lot of Rhine’s other creations, and by extension Susbedo, were treated by her. As her “perfect creation”, Albedo tends to see Rhine as someone who made some mistakes but ultimately tried, and tbh, that wouldn’t be much of an issue if he was her only creation or the others were similarly treated or given plans for their future, but as we know that’s not the case. It’s that thing where Genshin tries to write in middle-school level conflicts, then sticks them into situations with severely traumatizing/potentially world-ending stakes and expects the audience to just roll with it, and that’s what happened with Susbedo, who absolutely did not get even the barest minimum support that Rhine at least tried to prepare for Albedo. And that includes how Albedo treated him as well, which wasn’t much different from how Rhine did. Now, he wasn’t the one who abandoned S2 and left him to be swallowed by Dragonspine Durin, that part is true. But he absolutely did pick up on Rhine’s attitude towards him as one of her “failures” intentionally or not, and doesn’t deviate from it or even question it. He even calls him “Master’s Failed experiment in the dragon’s belly” at one point, same dehumanizing language that she used and very little thought for whether Subject 2 would hear him or feel anything about it. Susbedo not only had to watch someone from similar circumstances as him fit into human society with few issues, but watched him do it while being as dismissive of him as this “failed experiment” as Gold previously was. What really doesn’t help is how Albedo tends to elevate Rhine and see her behavior in a positive light, which can blindside him to consequences of her behavior towards those who weren’t as supported as he was. And once Susbedo finally shows himself, he’s treated like a problem to be dealt with rather than someone who can feel things by not only someone who was supposed to be his brother (and therefore someone who could’ve understood him or even could’ve been his ally), but by this random Traveler that Albedo met recently who instantly believed what he had to say and also saw Susbedo as a problem. Susbedo had no one and nothing to turn to, and that can really mess with the way you view the world. While it doesn’t absolve, you know, literally trying to kill someone and take over their life, there’s also that angle of never being sided with and having the golden child (hehe golden) of the family also participate in the very mentality that got him abandoned on a snowy mountain in the first place to really consider here.

Therein lies the second problem: that pattern of Mondstadt/Hexerei characters (barring a few exceptions like Kaeya) upholding some harmful societal/familial beliefs or rules, and never having to be challenged on them or face any real lasting consequences because Mond is so moral and good and praises the Traveler so much (TM). I’ve talked a lot about how badly this problem manifests in Varka, Jean, Diluc, Amber, Rosaria, etc…well what do you know, Albedo and Rhine have that issue as well, and though it was there since early in the game it really showed from Paralogism onwards.

We already learned previously how Rhine treated a lot of her creations (aka many of them were considered failures and abandoned), the havoc unleashed on all corners of Teyvat because of her various experiments and the multiple generations of trauma that resulted from that, and how isolated Albedo was under her tutelage. And yet…despite being considered one of the Sinners of Khaenri’ah, it feels like the worst of the consequences are bore by everyone but her (especially innocents caught in the crossfire), and therein lies the problem. She’s still a valued member of the Hexenzirkel and treated like an old friend who just “played around”, though considering the other members’ stances on things I guess it’s not too out of place. Even then, in Paralogism she’s still painted as “made some oopsies” or “she wasn’t that bad”, and while she does lament Dragonspine Durin’s fate…she still does it while holding onto the mentality that it was because he was flawed and thus a failure from the moment she created him. And wouldn’t you know it, that mentality was also the one that got Susbedo abandoned and swallowed up by Durin in the first place, she hasn’t really moved past it and no one who could has really pushed back against it, and even Albedo can see that. And she gets to ascend by eating the shade of life…yippee. Right alongside that is Albedo not only insisting that she wasn’t that bad, but also upholding a lot of her mentality whether it was intentional or not. Albedo…you know, the guy who Rhine didn’t abandon and paid the most attention to because he was deemed her perfect creation, and even then had the support of her best friends afterwards as well as the ability to fit the standards of a city that places a lot of emphasis on legacy and appearances. The guy who really should not be speaking on her behavior as a whole when he’s way more privileged than a lot of those involved in her shit, and the way she treated him was the exception, not the rule. It would be one thing if this narrow worldview was explored and treated like a genuine flaw (which would open up potential for incredible character development), but when he says that we’re just kinda expected to take his word for it, because Albedo is so smart, nice to the Traveler and befitting of Mondstadt (TM) so he MUST be a reliable narrator. /s He’s never challenged on that worldview by the Traveler or anyone else, nor does he get challenged on the way he talks about Susbedo, which isn’t that different from the way Rhine talks about most of her experiments and is meant to be agreed with because of how much the game treats Susbedo like a problem to be dealt with first and foremost. And with the way the other characters practically venerate Albedo and how he never has to really face consequences in-game for even the things that could be his flaws…yeah. With Rhinedottir, you could make the argument that she’s not meant to be seen as a morally sound character in the first place…but when it’s Albedo, someone presented as a much more nice, wise and worldly character who’s even a member of the playable cast, that’s where you need to address that flaw otherwise it’ll make him come across as less sympathetic than intended.

I get that when you’re looking in from an outside perspective, it’s easy to reduce the entirety of the conflict in there to “oh he was jealous”. But through the eyes of someone who’s been in such situations…there was likely also a shit ton of resentment for Albedo not only reinforcing a lot of Rhine’s attitudes and negative beliefs that got attributed to him, but the kind of positions Albedo and Rhine were in making it practically impossible for S2 to be believed or taken seriously if he ever tried saying how he really felt. Like, that’s the kind of shit certain teachers use to pit students against each other in school all the time, and oftentimes it’s the people pleasing kids who meet standards getting roped into helping enforce a lot of those toxic habits and shaming those who don’t meet said standards whether they realize it or not. Being way too familiar with that kind of crap, I had a hard time seeing this whole plot line as just “Susbedo was jealous that he didn’t get attention.”

At the same time, that’s not to say Susbedo’s pov was entirely sound or that he was never blindsided. Like I’ve discussed before, a lot of the times when Mondstadt shows love and admiration for someone, it tends to be for something very surface-level and puts the person on a superhuman pedestal, which might not be the kind of admiration S2 ends up reveling in when you really think about it (though to be fair the narrative is also pretty iffy about addressing that). Also, who says he has to be loved by Mondstadt specifically? It’s not the only place in Teyvat (though it says a lot about the kind of favoritism Mond gets by the game and fandom when it’s treated like failure to not be loved by the nation that’s ironically kinda judgmental, like in Eula’s story too). And he didn’t seem to think about how Albedo was still under some kind of pressure to achieve with how Rhine’s attention was on him, and other potential downsides if he’d managed to catch her eye with some kind of talent or something. I feel like that could’ve been expanded on a bit more if they didn’t treat Susbedo like just a problem for the good and moral (TM) playable cast to solve from the word go, it would even supplement his extreme actions, and emphasize how much he messed up in doing what he did while also being a good opening to address what kind of longstanding patterns in the family dynamic/society drove him to have that worldview in the first place. But that would require Albedo, Rhine (and the rest of the Hexenzirkel), and to an extent, the Traveler and the nice suburban town to be able to bear actual lasting consequences for their actions and we can’t have that here. /s

I might write a more detailed and less disjointed analysis on this later on just because of how tired I was when I finished this one, but TLDR: Was the jealousy a major factor in the way he acted? Yeah. Was there a lot of other shit going on that was just as important as that and shouldn’t have been as overlooked as it was? Also yeah.

[floweryflees]

This is greatly put. The effect of being perceived and treated as failed, broken, not even "in need of fixing" (though that's not even much better) are often treated like a nothing burger obstacle with no overarching consequences on the victim's (Like Dorian/Susbedo) psyche.

Behavior which might be attributed to the treatment and perception of that "troublemaker" or "troublesome" character is often used as proof by the fandom or game that [insert extremely traumatized character] is morally/inherently evil or "too far gone to be salvaged/saved.

Reasonable or justifiable reactions regarding the terrible or downright terrifying situations they are in are often seen in such a shallow, narrow-minded (to the "troublesome" character's lore, which might explain why they act the way they do), and often biased or one-sided—like they are only hearing out or considering one side of the story, in this case, the "good" character's side of the story (I often see this with Kaeya or Diluc situation/lore, often going as far as painting Kaeya as the one in the wrong/or in need of apologising/or begging for forgiveness).

To the game and fandom, a "good" character (conforming to Mondstat's ideals of extreme, egotistical, self-serving, and self-centered heroism) needs to quickly get over whatever issues they are dealing with (also confide, praise, and trust in the traveller, especially this—as soon as possible). They should also fit into the moral compass of the game, which in Mondstat, is often gaining a vision and becoming a knight to protect the nation.

[fatimagic]

i've been really curious about this due to my own experience in certain fandoms, sooo here goes...

has a fandom ever ruined a ship for you?

yes (i stopped shipping something solely because of the fandom)

yes (nuance)

no (a ship's fandom has nothing to do with me shipping it)

no (nuance)

Voting ended onNov 10, 2025

please reblog and elaborate in the tags!

[beastliness]

hate it when the people who I love are suffering due to circumstances beyond my control 👎 there should be a sea monster that I can slay to fix the problem

[beastliness]

nobody ever gets locked in a tower or chained to a rock at sea anymore - it's always some shit like chronic illness or ptsd related depression

[deepseasmetro]

"its ok if you find people annoying as long as you dont like act on it" yes but more of you should be investigating WHY you find somebody annoying. is that woman too outspoken and "bitchy"? is that black man not "polite enough"? is that disabled person too whiny and victimizing? is that child too clingy and attention seeking? you need to actually ask yourself WHY people make you feel a certain way. you still dont have to be friends with them but i think it has to go further than just staying polite. life gets better when you unpack why certain people bother you, and it can help you develop not just patience but also empathy for people different to you. which sounds like some childrens cartoon bullshit but a lot of you need to hear it anyways, apparently

[homunculus-argument]

Uncomfortable facts of life:

Nobody's going to magically swoop in to rescue you. You can't just sit there and expect someone else to come save you. You have to get your shit together and do it yourself.

About 90% of the time, the "it" you have to do on your own is pushing yourself to walk up to someone else and use your words to say "hey I need help."

[probuccalfat]

be sincere and true to yourself or suffer soul death you don’t have any other choices

[identitty-dickruption]

hey so if you have secret prejudiced thoughts about an oppressed group. and you feel guilty about those thoughts. to be honest it isn’t very swagilicious when you go out of your way to turn a member of that oppressed group into your own personal confessional booth. I don’t need to know that you were secretly ableist about your wheelchair using coworker, actually. I don’t need to know that you used to hate trans people. you don’t need to make that my problem please

[identitty-dickruption]

people in the notes keep saying “don’t do this to an internet stranger” and that’s true. but I need to be clear that I wrote this post after a close(ish) friend confessed her secret ableisms to my face. so also don’t go out into the offline world and do this either

[crimewave420]

what kind of blogs do you follow

I follow a wide range of blogs to make sure my own blog content is as inconsistent and annoying as possible

[curiositysavesthecat]

For those who read fanfics or original works on platforms like AO3, are you more encouraged to leave comments on writers' works when/if they respond to your comments?

Yes, getting responses from writers motivates me to comment more often

Getting replies from writers is nice, BUT it doesn't affect my commenting habits

I don't care either way (I still comment on writers' works)

No, I don't like it when writers reply to my comments

I don't leave comments on writers' works

I don't read fanfics or original works where you can comment on writers' works

Voting ended onAug 31, 2025

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