Thorny Syscourse

We're a pro-endo DID system. We've called this "thorny syscourse" because the topic is usually just that. But while this is a syscourse blog, it's also meant to bring some positivity.

[foreststhorns]

"Pro" As In We Believe You

Welcome to Thorny Syscourse. We are an adult, pro-endo, quiogenic, medically recognized DID system. No, we will not be sharing what our main blog is. We're aiming to keep syscourse on this blog and primarily off our main.

We are pro-endo. If you want to have a civil discussion, we're open to that. If you're here to attack us, you'll get blocked.

BYF and a little about the alters you'll see posting here under the cut.

About Us:

We are bodily an adult and all alters posting here are also adults. No minors will be posting on this blog.

All people posting are alters from the same system. You can call us Forest of Thorns - Forest for short - if you'd like.

Please refer to us as "alters" or "headmates." We do not like "parts" language for us.

We are quiogenic. Don't ask us about our origins. It is not anyone's place to demand systems reveal their life history to you.

Contributing Alters:

📖 Host - they/them

🩸 Anger Holder - she/her

💠 Caregiver - he/him

BYF:

We're pro-endo. We aren't compromising on that. We believe that people know what they're experiencing and no one can see inside someone else's head.

That includes ALL good-faith identities. A person's or system's identity is not for anyone else to decide.

We're a medically recognized CDD system. We are recognized by a mental health professional as having DID. We aren't going to debate you about our status as a CDD system.

We do believe that CDDs should be handled as disorders. One of the criteria of disordered plurality is that it causes clinically significant distress and/or dysfunction. The dysfunction and distress are why these disorders need treatment. What that looks like is different for each system.

We do NOT believe that you need to have had a CDD, now or ever, and/or have experienced trauma to be a system. Plurality can stem from other things.

Additionally, just because your system did not form from trauma does not mean you are immune from trauma. It also does not mean experiencing trauma cannot cause you to develop a CDD if you are already plural.

We are neutral on psychiatry. There are problems with psychiatry as an institution, particularly when it comes to mindsets influenced by colonialism and racism, but there does need to exist a branch of medicine dedicated to the mind.

We're pro-researched self-diagnosis. Not everyone has access to the sort of care they would need to get a diagnosis. Definitely we believe you should do your research, but lack of access to appropriate medical care has no bearing on whether or not you have something diagnosible.

If you're an asshole to us, expect 🩸 to put you on blast. That's just sort of what she does.

[medicalfiles]

I never understood how the anti endo rhetoric been narrowed down to an opinion.

How has cynicism about someone's experiences become but a boundary?

How has presuming someone's mere existence can be ableist become the norm?

How has dehumanization and discomfort-rooted ignorance become acceptable, just because you "don't believe" in something.

[the-sky-children-sillies]

Syscourse is so ridiculous because people act like it’s two bad sides when it’s actually just people who want to be left alone and exist vs bigots.

[sodomit]

Ngl I'm kinda worried by growing apathy towards sysmedicalism. "Anti endo" is not just some kind of an irrelevant opinion, it's a hate ideology. If you wouldn't reblog art, general political takes, or funny posts from a terf, don't reblog from sysmeds.

[ripcordsys]

see, the thing is, i understand anti-endos/anti-willos. i've felt that pang of "that's not fair! i had to go through hell for this! i was forced into it! it's not fair that you can choose! it's not fair that you got it naturally!"

but, the thing is? i'm mature. so i moved on. feelings are normal. jealousy is normal. that feeling of "this isn't fair" is normal. but you have to learn to deal with it. you have to acknowledge that the feeling is real and valid, but it's also not one you can allow to stay.

because it's not fair to them. those are real people, endogenic and willogenic systems. those are people with emotions and feelings. you have no idea what their life is like. you cannot allow your upset to hurt them.

maybe it isn't fair. but that doesn't matter. don't repeat the cycle. don't let your trauma turn you into a cruel person.

[i-suggest-being-pro-endo]

i have a suggestion!

consider listening to people's personal experiences and considering other options instead of forcing other people's experience of personhood (not a scientific concept but a philosophical one) into your own boxes and claiming that you can only experience multiplicity through trauma and a medical disorder.

unless you actually have real evidence.

in which case, show the real evidence that completely disproves that one can experience multiple states of self that are at least semi autonomous without severe trauma. and no, just stating "the dsm!" or "science!" or "anything on DID" is not proof. actual proof that shows that the experience of multiple (semi-)autonomous states of self is solely linked to trauma and absolutely cannot be experienced by anyone else.

otherwise, consider listening to endogenic systems personal experiences with an open mind, and don't just brush them off because you think they're larping and ableist just because you think they're basically impossible, or saying that they're treating it as "just an identity like gender" (which waters down the experiences of trans people to being "just an identity" that you seem to associate with a choice? when the majority of trans people do not "choose their identities", they discover their experiences and label them?), or call them slurs because you think you can, or whatever else?

[anonymous-truma-pro]

Someone sharing their own internal experiences can NEVER be ableist for doing so. Someone is NEVER ableist for EXISTING as themselves.

Endogenic systems exist and you can’t do anything about it.

No amount of screaming “science!” will change the fact they exist.

[the-moshpit-collective]

I love the term "pluralpunk" like yes I'm punk for supporting all plurals !!! I love my plural moots !! I'm a traumagenic who supports endogenics !! It doesn't make me or anyone less or more valid because we are all equal !! Your existence is not a debate !! You matter so much and you deserve so many good things !!!

Become pluralpunk today !!! It made me 100x times happier !! It will make you 100x times happier !!!!

[anonymous-truma-pro]

Btw, being attacked for being a bigot will NEVER be the same as being the target of bigotry.

I have never met any endogenic system that has hated me for being traumagenic, or when we were questioning having a CDD, NEVER. Not even once in all the years we’ve been in the plural community, in all the discords we’ve been in, The good and bad ones, That’s never been an issue. The worst was someone expressing confusion at some of the ways we described our experiences, which was fixed with a simple explanation from us.

But you know who has hated us? Sysmeds when we still identified as a endogenic system, Sysmeds when we have endogenic and willogenic headmates, Sysmeds when the TOSD doesn’t fully explain us, Sysmeds when we refuse to think of our system as a disorder, Sysmeds when we politely explain our position and experiences.

We’ve had death threats, harassment, and CONSTANT fakeclaiming. I am not exaggerating. It’s why my system doesn’t even have their own account anymore, why I’m the only one who will touch syscourse. Why they only express themselves on servers they know to be safe.

It’s why I formed, why I split. Why I’m here in the first place. Because of the trauma inflicted on us for being unapologetically plural online, and because of the “more valid” trauma inflected on us for being unapologetically queer irl.

Because of sysmeds, because of bigots.

I don’t feel sympathy for sysmeds, I don’t feel sympathy for them having trauma. Because we have trauma, we always had trauma, even when we identified as wholly endogenic we recognized that we had trauma and it never stopped them. It doesn’t stop them now when I fully identify as traumagenic. I don’t feel sympathy when people are mean to them for being sysmeds. (And usually, being “mean” is people correcting them on the misinformation they sprew)

Including the more “passive” sysmeds, they ALSO contributed to all this. Just because you don’t harass endogenic systems doesn’t mean you don’t still push bigotry and normalize it.

It’s why I will NEVER stop fighting for endogenic systems to be able to exist as themselves without bigotry, and I’m starting with the place I can actually make an impact, online, where people are likely to actually listen to us. Where I can actually research and take breaks.

Even if my system has (rightfully) decided to shut themselves in places they know are safe and stay quiet otherwise, I will not be quiet.

Maybe some day they will let themselves out of their shell, but I am always willing to be the one in the fire.

[imhidingfrom-mywife]

Genuine question, why do you support Endosystems despite their logic and identity being harmful and ableist to the disorder that you all have?? My bad if this seems personal.

They're not ableist. I've been pro-endo even before I knew my system fully and I continue to stand by it. I don't understand how they're ableist. DID, OSDD, pDID are ALL trauma based, that is correct, but that's not what endogenic systems are often claiming to be. Endogenic is a system, alter, sisasystem, etc that formed for reasons other than trauma. It doesn't mean without, so YES, they can still have DID. Origin labels are opt-in labels, describing experiences, nothing less, nothing more. What's ableist about.. describing experiences?

If you're referring to non-disordered systems, they're not ableist either. They just have alters. Anti-Endos LOVE saying DID isn't just "alter disorder", which is correct. There is more to this disorder than alters. But the MOMENT you suggest you can have alters without a disorder, suddenly you MUST have one, which reduces DID to alter disorder anyway. A disorder NEEDS to cause distress and impairment. If somebody has alters, symptoms, whatever without those features, they can't be disordered by definition. You also can't be Disordered if it's related to religious practices or part of the common culture, so tulpamancy (though controversial), an endogenic type of systemhood/plurality, cannot be disordered.

In the end, I support them because why should I tell anybody what they can and cannot experience? AND multiple therapists (Including Dr. Collin Ross) do support Endogenic Plurality, and the ICD does speak of non-disordered plurality (WITH ENDOGENIC EXAMPLES). The absence of evidence DOES NOT mean evidence of absence. I have no right to believe it isn't possible, considering I am TraumaEndo with Primarily Endogenic origins. So if I didn't believe it could happen, how could it be happening to me?

I can go on about this, but this is already really long. So, tdlr: in the end, Endogenic systems do have support from therapists and the ICD, they can still have trauma, and saying you need DID to have alters reduces it to "alter disorder" which is incorrect

[editedantiendoposts]

Love seeing anti-endos post things like "love you pwCDDs" but they actually only mean anti-endos who have CDDs.

[cambriancrew]

"I am part of a plural system. I am one of many individual people in one body and brain. I am this way for reasons I'm fully aware of, reasons that are not trauma. This experience of plurality is not a CDD for us."

This thing that endogenics like us are saying is not at all the same as saying, "We want CDDs to stop being considered a mental illness." Those are two entirely different conversations. We're having the first conversation. We're not having the second.

[guardianssystem]

We swear if we see one more person say that the theory of structural dissociation proves endogenic systems can't exist, we're going to stab someone. -_-

/joking. not serious, just annoyed, lol

[plural-archivist]

I hate one argument that I've seen lots of anti endos use. the one thag says "endogenic systems started as a hate group", because they use it as a whole thing to dismiss their experiences as being plural. we can't change what our predecessors did in the past. we can only learn from their mistakes and be better. the current pro endo movement is not the same as the one before, or the same one that tries to demedicalize dissociative disorders. endogenic plural systems are just... plural.

their plurality didn't come from trauma.

but they still could have trauma.

and excluding the people from that community, they're just harming all of us further. they're harming trauma survivors. endogenic systems haven't done anything wrong just for existing (in general; there will be bad apples in the community, but so could be bad apples in anti endo spaces, or in cdd spaces), and don't deserve to be called fakers, liars, or being demonized just for daring to exist.

[plural-archivist]

I hate one argument that I've seen lots of anti endos use. the one thag says "endogenic systems started as a hate group", because they use it as a whole thing to dismiss their experiences as being plural. we can't change what our predecessors did in the past. we can only learn from their mistakes and be better. the current pro endo movement is not the same as the one before, or the same one that tries to demedicalize dissociative disorders. endogenic plural systems are just... plural.

their plurality didn't come from trauma.

but they still could have trauma.

and excluding the people from that community, they're just harming all of us further. they're harming trauma survivors. endogenic systems haven't done anything wrong just for existing (in general; there will be bad apples in the community, but so could be bad apples in anti endo spaces, or in cdd spaces), and don't deserve to be called fakers, liars, or being demonized just for daring to exist.

[tussai]

Acknowledging flaws in a movement's or community's history does not require rejecting every person currently associated with it. It just means you have to be more critical and discerning of still-pervasive ideology and behavior.

[cannibalisticvoyeurism]

Really I think some of you just want a scapegoat to blame for the rampant ableism that isn't even unique to dissociative disorders and you point towards endogenics. I understand your anger but you're taking it out on the wrong people and going about it the wrong way. Lack of understanding, awareness, and tolerance for mental illness is the reason we get mocked. Not because some person finds meaning in separating their personality into parts, or naturally views it that way.

Be nice to people who experience life differently than you and see things differently than you. Try to understand where they're coming from. Endogenic isn't an attack on dissociative disorders. It's just a way some people conceptualise themselves or choose to live. And it is not, in any way, synonymous to "without trauma." Even people without DDs have trauma sometimes. Even endogenics. 👍

[guardianssystem]

We swear if we see one more person say that the theory of structural dissociation proves endogenic systems can't exist, we're going to stab someone. -_-

/joking. not serious, just annoyed, lol