batman fans when bruce is written as a bad parent: this is so ooc because he is a good dad. he would never do what these writers are making him do.
batman fans when talia is written as a bad parent: yes this is how she actually is. she is one violent bitch. totally not racist writer’s decision, it was talia all along.
I think a lot of people would understand Dick being weird about Talia if they wrote her with their actual ages. (Which is to say, be less racist about it and have Dick be more weirded the fuck out by Bruce dating a woman who's roughly around his age.)
Learning that Talia was not supposed to be ancient like Ras and using the pit and was actually in her early twenties changed basically every scene with her in it, like, she should be back in college!!!! She sould be nervously going out to a club for the first time!!
In case it seems redundant and unreasonable for Bruce to reveal his identity just to publicly accuse Joker of murder when Joker is already known to be a murderer, Bruce also went out of his way to get Joker released the one time he was about to get sent to the death penalty because Joker didn’t commit that specific crime.
Bruce in Hush 2: haha lol Jason you have brain damage cos the Lazarus Pit couldn’t fix it. That’s the reason. No other possible explanation. What lobotomy?
Why is there so much emphasis on every detail of Jason’s incorrect choices rather than the fact that Sheila sold him out. Hindsight is worthless here. There’s nothing to learn. Any robin would’ve done the same thing in his shoes and any other time it would’ve turned out ok for them. ADITF is the one** comic where a child is killed off for real and it is only this noteworthy because of how rare and counter to everything that had been established it was and is. Comics are full of lessons and meanings but Jason’s death was a senseless tragedy. The joker didn’t consider the ramifications of what he was doing and tbh I don’t think Starlin and O’Neil did either. There was no way for Jason to live through writers who wanted him dead. Why does it have to say something about his temperament, why is it proof he was predisposed to this? No I’m serious where exactly are you getting that?
**I know it isn’t the only one but it is one of only a few so you get what I mean
the main problem with the "would jason have been a criminal without bruce" debate is that it fails to engage with the concept of criminality in anything but the most persecutory, classist ways possible.
jason was already a criminal when bruce found him. stealing tires to survive is a crime. jason is in poverty. he doesn't have the luxury to pick & choose his victims so that they're all rich & tough like batman – bruce catches him jacking the tires of a working class guy who's just in the neighborhood to check on his aunt. (suits were coded working class in this era of Batman; jason's father is also depicted in a white collar. yes that's its own form of classism lol) Batman #408:
bruce comes across this guy directly after stopping a violent mugging. i want to emphasize that jason is contributing to the lack of safety in his neighborhood even if that's not really what he wants to be doing. again, he does not have the luxury to follow this guy around and ensure he isn't harmed as a result of his actions. he does not have the luxury to make sure the guy can even afford to replace those tires. this is a fairly realistic depiction of interactions between poverty & crime.
the insistence that jason would NOT have been a criminal erases his poverty and helplessness. jason's squat is full of collected tin cans - he is literally scrounging for pennies to survive. he is visibly scrawny and underfed. even though he only stole 2 tires from bruce, we see 5 in his squat, suggesting he may struggle to hock tires even when he can get them.
his lifestyle is not working out. he's a 5th grade dropout who refuses to seek help. (i would argue that jason's refusal to be a "charity case" arises from Max Allen Collins's uncritical consumption of Reaganite anti-welfare propaganda, but it works in the story because there are a contingent of impoverished people, particularly men, who believe it humiliating to "rely on the government" because they, too, have uncritically consumed such propaganda and tied it to their masculine identity, so much so they'd rather turn to crime. it's entirely possible for Willis Todd to have been such a man & passed his beliefs onto Jason.) jason's tire theft is very clearly a first step down the same path willis took, "boosting cars and working in chop shops"
batman occupies a precarious legal position, but he is not framed as a criminal. there have been times where he was hunted by cops, but they have always been a departure from the status quo. he works with law enforcement. his vigilantism is better understood as a privately funded extension of the state than an opposition to it. when DC writers claim that bruce pulled jason out of a life of crime, they are not counting batman's vigilantism as criminal activity because of its compliance with existing power structures. but jason's version of heroism never involved those structures.
(take note: batman called the cops here where jason didn't)
jason's vigilantism as red hood is framed as criminality because it does not seek permission from the state. (no, it's not because he kills. cops kill. it's not because he uses explosives; batman uses explosives.)
ofc, DC writers that claim jason would've turned to crime without batman are blatantly ignoring that jason died young and became a full-blown crimelord as a result of bruce's influence, but that's another discussion.
the opposition to these writers' claims has an unfortunate tendency to cede 99% of the fight: "jason wouldn't be a criminal! he's a good person." we need not accept DC's classist framework that criminality can be defined as pointless immoral behavior, instead of marginalization by the state—potentially for good (predatory behavior) &/or bad (poor, nonwhite, etc) reasons.
and this also doesn't mean that jason would never have lapsed into actually immoral behavior. at the end of the day, what we're struggling with is the refusal to imagine that people can be spiritually worn down by their experiences and give up on notions of good and evil in the face of unforgiving practicality. it's a failure of empathy.
so yes, jason was a criminal. he would have continued to be a criminal, at least so long as he refused help. bruce's intervention in his life was a way of getting a very driven little boy to accept that help. (it's also rooted in Collins's classist notion that it's fine to endanger little boys if they come from rough backgrounds, but Collins was not Starlin and never intended for Jason to be killed.) i'm tired of pretending otherwise. rather, it's more enlightening to think about what kind of criminal jason might've been: a worn-out addict? an opportunistic thief? a catlad type? maybe even a noble gangster or a radicalized anti-prison ex-con. we can have plenty of versions of a criminal jason who's still sympathetic, still heroic, still good.
in the timeless words of Eugene V Debs:
Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
IMO “giving up on notions of good and evil in the face of unforgiving practicality” is a major theme of Jason’s character that ties together the pre- and post-death parts of his story, and informs a lot of what being Robin must’ve meant for him. All throughout Batman 408, we see how protective Jason is of the personal boundaries he has been able to maintain. Even looking at what little we know of Willis, it’s conspicuous that both father and son engage in the same type of “small time” non-violent crime. For Jason, becoming Robin would’ve been freedom from this spiritual indignity. As Red Hood, Jason’s character comes full circle. He no longer needs to commit crimes to survive, but he is still back to picking and choosing what he can live with.
If there is one thing though, I’d push back on the idea that Jason was refusing help, considering as soon as he did accept it through Batman, Jason ended up getting trafficked. Ma Gunn’s school may be a goofy cartoon version of it, but it is ultimately child labor trafficking and something that RHATO would later treat with a touch more seriousness. (Plus if I’m not mistaken, Gotham’s child services is usually not depicted in the best light in Dick’s comics either.)
I'm really into tracking timelines in comic books, and Jason's one of my favorite characters, so there's a ton of information in my brain about his. Jason's a very old character, and his continuity can be pretty difficult to follow unless you're deliberately trying to track it. I see a lot of confusion over Jason's age in the fandom, and I wanted to provide a sort of walkthrough for how it changes in canon. For the purpose of this post, I’m weighing sources roughly by their canonical and probative value: on-panel comic evidence first, then contemporary editorial statements, then contemporary external material, and finally later external publications.
I'm going to mostly be focusing on post-Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985) (COIE) continuity, since that's the area I know the most about, it's the continuity most of the fandom uses for timelines, and its continuity seems to have been mostly restored in modern canon. Additionally, you'll notice I'm breaking post-Crisis continuity into pre- and post-Zero Hour: Crisis in Time! (1994); this is because Zero Hour was a time crisis, meaning it reorganized the overall DC timeline to squeeze what was then the modern age into roughly ten years, which naturally affected Batman continuity pretty significantly. The changes Zero Hour made are particularly relevant when discussing Jason's age and overall timeline, so I'll be interpreting material from both continuities independently from one another at first. Then, I'll go through where they contradict each other, as well as a few different ways these contradictions can be reconciled.
Also, before we actually get into anything, I'm not going to be using the death certificate from The Batman Files (2011), as per the criteria I outlined earlier, it carries no real weight as a source; I'll come back to this at the end, but for right now I'm going to move on.
Crisis on Infinite Earths to Zero Hour (1986-1994)
NOTE: If you're seeing this, then this post is still a WIP; this part only covers pre-Zero Hour continuity.
Age at Death + Starlin's Run
Every source I've found relating to pre-Zero Hour continuity points to the same conclusion: Jason was 12–13 years old when he died in Batman: A Death in the Family (ADITF). I know this sounds crazy and wrong, and probably goes against everything you've ever thought, but let me explain before you click off.
SOURCE ONE: Batman Annual (1940) #12
In The Back-Up, which was included in Batman Annual (1940) #12, Jason is explicitly stated to be a 7th grader. On that same page I linked, Jason references KGBeast—a character who did not exist until the storyline Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast (Batman #417–420)—meaning Batman Annual #12 must take place after Batman #417–420. From there, Jason runs away in Batman #426, and is dead by Batman #428. It's obvious that multiple years didn't pass from Batman #420 to Batman #426; neither the comics nor editorial give any reason to believe otherwise...but I promised a full walk-through, so here we go.
The in-universe timeline of Jim Starlin's entire run on Batman (Batman #414–430) can be tracked pretty easily. The goal of tracking Starlin's run is to demonstrate why it cannot take place over multiple years; if Jason is a 7th grader after the KGBeast arc, he cannot plausibly have aged into another grade by ADITF. Batman #414 begins Starlin's run as well as the "Dumpster Slasher" trilogy, which then continues in Batman #421 and concludes in Batman #422. On page two of Batman #421, we’re told that since Batman #414, the total number of victims has increased to ten, and that the killer has since developed a pattern of killing once a week, skipping the third. Subsequently, on page three of Batman #421, we're told that Kate Babcock was Victim #5. As we were shown another victim after Kate in Batman #414, we can derive that the pattern started with Victim #6 at the end of Batman #414, and we can simply follow the pattern therefrom:
Week 1: Victim #6 (end of Batman #414)
Week 2: Victim #7
Week 3: Skipped
Week 4: Victim #8
Week 5: Victim #9
Week 6: Skipped
Week 7: Victim #10
Week 8: Victim #11 (beginning of Batman #421)
As you may have noticed, I included a “Victim #11” despite earlier stating there were ten victims. This is because on page two of Batman #421, Bruce says to Gordon that there should have been an eleventh victim that week and is then informed that they haven’t found a body, yet. Read the issue if you want to know what I mean by that "yet", as it's not relevant for timeline stuff, but this tells us that everything from Batman #414–421 happens within two months, including Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast, which, as the name suggests, takes place over ten nights. Furthermore, the end of Batman #421 flows directly into the beginning of Batman #422, and in the middle of Batman #422, there's a 3-month time skip. Therefore, everything from the end of Batman #414 through the end of Batman #422 happens within ~5 months.
Unfortunately, after Batman #422, I've been unable to find anything that tells us how much time passes within Starlin's run, but I can estimate from looking at the art and the pacing of the actual story. I don’t think any significant amount of time passes from Batman #422–426, and then Batman #426–430 seems to take place over a few weeks, so, to err on the side of caution, I’m going to call it roughly 1–3 months. This means that Starlin's entire Batman run, excluding the last few issues where Jason is dead, takes place over roughly 6–8 months, but that's not all—I can also tell you what time of year it takes place.
Detective Comics (1937) #581 takes place around the 200th anniversary of the U.S. Constitution, which was signed on September 17th, 1787. The following issue, Detective Comics #582, is a direct tie-in to Batman #415, meaning we can reasonably assume Starlin's run begins in early fall; add 6–8 months, and we end up in the spring for ADITF (well, isn't that a satisfying coincidence?). From there, we can reason that Starlin's run takes place within one school year. Ergo, if Jason was in 7th grade in Batman Annual #12, which, as I've already established, takes place after Batman #420, then he must also have been a 7th grader when he died.
Jason didn't have a birthday in the 80's, so we can't pinpoint an exact age just off pre-Zero Hour continuity, but 7th graders are 12–13 years old, which means Jason was 12–13 years old when he died. This is an absurd level of detail to track a comic book timeline down to, but I didn't want to leave room for anyone to be like "Wait, but a summer could have passed, which would put him in 8th grade". So...there you go.
SOURCE TWO: Letter Columns of Batman (1940) #413
NOTE: Transcribed this one in case the links break, since I know finding letter columns can be a pain.
In the letter columns of Batman #413, a reader wrote in, asking about Jason’s age:
My one complaint about this otherwise excellent two-part story concerns the ambiguity of Jason’s age. The way Chris Warner Drew him in #408, he looks to be about ten years old, which would be right if, as Denny O’Neil says, the story occurs about three years ago. But in #409, Jason looks like he could be thirteen. Tom Mandrake had him looking about fifteen or sixteen (see the portrait in WHO’S WHO). Klaus Janson did the same in DETECTIVE #568. And in BATMAN #402 he could be about eighteen or twenty. However, according to the tombstone at the end of DETECTIVE #571, he is twelve!
Let’s have a ruling. Once and for all, how old is Jason Todd?
I think a lot of people read the first couple of sentences of this question, skip straight to the answer, and then end up confused—cough, DC wiki—but the reader explicitly mentions that Batman #408 happens in the past, and then goes on to discuss comics that, at the time, were taking place in present continuity. It is pretty clear, at least to me, that what they’re confused about is the fact that Jason seemed to have multiple present-continuity-ages, and they couldn’t even estimate his then-current age based on what he looked like in Batman #408–409. In other words, it is more reasonable to assume the letter is asking “How old is Jason in present continuity?” rather than “How old is Jason meant to be in Batman #408–409?”. The response to the reader's question makes this interpretation difficult to dispute:
OK, I’m going to go right to the sensei on this one:
“Oh great Denny-lama, just how old is Jason Todd?”
“Ah, weed-hopper, he is 12. Now quit bowing to me and take that silly turban off your head!”
Whether or not you interpreted the reader's question as “How old is Jason in present continuity?”, I think it’s pretty clear the editors did. I don’t see a case for arguing that this is not an explicit answer for how old Jason was in present continuity at the time.
Alternatively, if that's not a good enough reason for you, we've established that Jason is a 7th grader in Batman Annual #12, which takes place after Batman #420, and that Batman #414–422 take place over ~5 months. In addition, we know that Batman #408–409 take place about 3 years before then-present continuity (see sources five and six for details). Therefore, to claim this response is stating that Jason was 12 in Batman #408 instead of present continuity, you must also claim that Batman #414–422 happened about 3 years in the past, which would be...untruthful.
Batman #413 directly precedes Batman #414, which means Jason was ~12 at the beginning of Starlin's run—the beginning of the school year—reaffirming Jason being in 7th grade throughout.
SOURCE THREE: Detective Comics (1937) #571
In Detective Comics #571, we're shown Jason's birth year (1974) and the current year (1986), which would put Detective Comics #571 in the year Jason turns 12. You might be wondering why I didn't list this source earlier, and that's because it's more difficult to place in overall continuity than Batman Annual #12. Mike W. Barr's run on Detective Comics ('TEC) was essentially responsible for reestablishing the dynamic duo in post-Crisis continuity. It was released alongside Batman: Year One (Batman #404–407) as well as Jason's origin retelling (Batman #408–411), and had a flashback story of its own, making those first few issues comparatively self-contained, given that they were the primary source for Batman and Robin's present continuity at the time.
They're still fully canon, but they're difficult to decisively place in Jason's overall post-Crisis timeline, so I think 'TEC #571 is best used as secondary, rather than primary, evidence to strengthen the claim made with the first and second sources.
SOURCE FOUR: DC TTRPG Card From 1989
This is a DC TTRPG card from 1989—right after Jason’s death—which lists Jason as 13 years old and deceased. 7th graders are usually 13 by the spring, so this card placing him at 13 makes sense and lines up with everything we've established so far. It should be noted that this is licensed by DC, rather than being from an actual comic, creator, or some other form of official material; thus, I wouldn't use it as a standalone source. However, since the card matches up with every other source from the time pretty nicely, I think it's useful as additional proof, much like the third source, as it makes the claim feel a bit more solid.
Meeting Bruce + Debuting as Robin
If you made it through the last section, this one should be easy. The evidence I have for this section is much more straightforward and easier to interpret, especially now that we've established Jason's age following COIE. From the information I've gathered, Batman #408–411 take place ~2.5–3 years before the fall of Jason's 7th grade year, meaning Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce and became Robin. I'd ask you to hear me out again, but if I did my job right, then the last section should've been enough for you to already be doing that.
SOURCE FIVE: Batman (1940) #416
Batman #416 is a flashback set one year in the past from present continuity, which, as I just established in my explanation of source one, would at this point be the fall of Jason's 7th grade year—meaning he'd be ~12 in the "present", and ~11 in this flashback. This issue is a retelling of Dick and Jason's first meeting, as Jason's revised post-crisis origin story rendered the original story obsolete. On page ten of Batman #416, Bruce says to Dick that he hasn't heard from him in eighteen months, which we can assume is referencing when Dick was fired in Batman #408.
Bruce meets Jason in Batman #408 weeks after Dick leaves; since there's only "weeks" between Dick leaving and Jason popping up, I think it's acceptable to use ~18 months for how long it's been since Bruce met Jason as well. I mean, it's a comic book timeline, we're lucky if we can get it down to a specific season, let alone specific weeks.
Anyway, that means that, according to Batman #416, about ~2.5 years pass from when Jason meets Bruce in Batman #408 to the present of Batman #416, or the fall of Jason's 7th grade year. Therefore, if Jason is ~12 in the fall of his 7th grade year, we can derive Jason is about 9–10 years old when he meets Bruce in Batman #408.
SOURCE SIX: Letter Columns of Batman (1940) #412
NOTE: Again, transcribed this one in case the link breaks, since I know finding letter columns can be annoying.
In the letter columns of Batman #412, a reader wrote in, asking why Jason was getting an origin story when he already had one and had been Robin for years. An editor, Johnathan Peterson, replied:
The reason Jason Todd’s origin is being reintroduced, David, is because DC’s hit mini-series CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS completely wiped out his earlier origin, namely the one in BATMAN #368. Actually, a few people wrote in expressing their similar confusion over the situation. So, let’s set the record straight. The events in BATMAN #408-409 chronicle the one, true, post-CRISIS origin of Jason Todd in Batman continuity. Also, this story takes place about 3 years ago. Thus, we are not denying Dick Grayson quit Robin to become Nightwing. It's just that we're not chronicling in depth Dick's decision to leave and his subsequent solo adventures in our current run of stories.
This one kind of speaks for itself. I mean Peterson literally explicitly states that Batman #408–409 took place ~3 years ago, ergo, if Jason was ~12 in what was then present continuity, then Jason was ~9 when he met Bruce in Batman #408. I would've included this source first because it's so easy to follow, but it's from the letter columns so I figured I'd prioritize the comic-based evidence.
SOURCE SEVEN: Robert Greenberger's Guidebooks
NOTE: You guessed it. Transcribed for your convenience. Also, if you're wondering why I'm including a post-Zero Hour source in this section, it's because the book seems to use Jason's pre-Zero Hour timeline. I can elaborate on what I mean by this in the replies, but basically, it's a guide, not a comic, meaning it goes in the same section as the material it's based on.
In his book The Essential Batman Encyclopedia (2008), Robert Greenberger explicitly claims that Jason was 9 years old when he met Bruce:
In the wake of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, Batman was once again a loner after Dick Grayson moved out of the manor. While visiting CRIME ALLEY, he discovered nine-year-old Jason Todd in the process of stealing the BATMOBILE's tires. Batman was impressed by the youth's moxie and took him to MA GUNN's School for Boys. The facility, though, was a front for a criminal operation that used the boys as thieves. Once Batman and Jason helped put an end to the scheme, the Dark Knight realized that he could mold the impetuous boy and decided the time had come to take on a new partner.
Furthermore, in another of his books, Batman: 100 Greatest Moments: Highlights from the History of The Dark Knight (2019), Greenberger repeats this detail:
After the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided to revamp Jason. Incoming writer Max Allan Collins made him a nine-year-old street urchin, first found in Crime Alley trying to rip off the Batmobile's tires. He explained that his criminal father was dead and he believed his mother was as well, so he had learned to fend for himself.
It should be noted that these excerpts are from guidebooks, meaning they aren't necessarily canon material or direct contemporary statements from the creators, and they serve best as secondary, rather than primary, evidence. For this very reason, I usually avoid guidebooks for continuity research; compiling decades of comic book history into one coherent narrative inevitably leads to errors. This is especially true for comic book timelines, which are infamously difficult to track, let alone when trying to balance multiple characters across various titles. However, it's important to look at evidence from every angle before you disregard it, and I think Greenberger has the history to make his word on this topic worth further consideration.
In 1984, Robert Greenberger was hired as an assistant editor to help Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. In case you're not particularly well-versed on the internal bureaucracy at DC, a core part of an editor's job description is maintaining continuity—it is literally their job to track the timelines, histories, and ages of characters across multiple titles.
I'd like to emphasize the fact that he worked alongside Len Wein and Marv Wolfman of all people, who were almost entirely responsible for coordinating and establishing post-Crisis continuity in the 80's. What's more, he's credited as both an editor and a writer for COIE and Who's Who, two projects that served as the foundation for post-Crisis continuity and characterization; his work during this period was so vital that he was promoted to editor only a year later in 1985. This guy is more than qualified to speak on continuity details from the mid-80's, especially for a character as integral to the DC mythos as Robin.
If that weren't enough, Greenberger wrote The Back-Up, which, in case you forgot, is literally the story in Batman Annual #12 that establishes Jason as a 7th grader. So he isn't just an accredited writer and editor who worked around the time Jason was Robin, he was directly involved with writing Jason Todd and the creator of one of the most straightforward sources for gauging Jason's age I've personally come across. If that doesn't make him worth listening to, then I don't know what else would.
Personally, I actually think it's really interesting that he claims Jason was 9 of all ages, since that's not necessarily the most intuitive option just going off the comics. From Batman #416 alone, you could easily argue that Jason was 10, while 9 only becomes the sole option if you exclusively go off Peterson's claim of "about 3 years" from source two. The fact that after twenty years, he included this age in his Batman encyclopedia, and then reaffirmed the detail ten years later in a second guidebook, makes me think it's an age for Jason editorial actually had written down somewhere and he personally remembered, rather than being something he independently pieced together years down the line.
Ultimately, I'm not going to claim these statements should be used as definitive sources, as, in any case, they're statements from guidebooks, rather than comic books, but I think they can tenably be used as additional evidence. Given that Greenberger's assertion fits perfectly within that 9–10-year-old range the previous two sources established, I think placing Jason at 9–10 years old when he met Bruce is more than reasonable when discussing pre-Zero Hour continuity.
SOURCE EIGHT: Batman (1940) #410
Batman #410—the first part of a two-part retelling of Jason's first outing as Robin—tells us on page one that it's been six months since Bruce took Jason in, ergo, six months pass between Jason meeting Bruce and his first Robin outing. Since, again, we didn't have a birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, there's no way for us to know if his birthday passed within those six months. Therefore, if Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce, he was also 9–10 years old when he made his post-Crisis Robin debut.
On page two of Batman #410, we're told by the narration that Jason is a "fifth-grade dropout"; considering fifth-graders are 10–11 years old, this would expand the 9–10-year-old range the previous three sources established, making Jason 10–11 years old when he met Bruce in Batman #408. However, I think this source can reasonably be labeled as an outlier, as three sources (a comic, a contemporary editorial statement, and a repeated claim from a credible writer), should probably be taken over one source (a comic).
Moreover, I think it's important to remember the context in which these comics were being written. Batman #408–411 were released as countless changes were being made to the overall DC continuity, and they may not have yet fully established an internal Batman timeline for the new post-Crisis continuity; notably, this age lines up suspiciously well with the pre-Crisis Batman timeline, which makes me think this may have actually been the case.
Also, the actual phrasing of "fifth-grade dropout" is kind of vague. You could argue this phrasing implies he dropped out of fifth grade, but it could also be interpreted as Jason currently being a fifth grader, as well as a dropout, placing him much closer to 10, or even 9 years old, six months earlier when he met Bruce. I'm not saying either of these reasons are enough to completely disregard this source; what's most important is that there are more sources it contradicts than it affirms, but, like I said earlier, it's best to look at a source from every angle before deciding it should be disregarded.
Regardless of the contradictions, it's there in the text, and I feel the need to include it here so you guys get the full picture. Even so, when tracking comic book timelines, there are going to be places where you just have to choose something to use and something to lose. So, as much as I hate disregarding on-panel evidence, one piece of evidence isn't enough to outweigh the broader evidentiary pattern that's been established through the other three sources. Therefore, for the purpose of this post, I'm going to set this source aside and keep the cleaner 9–10-year-old range.
TL;DR
From what I can tell, the pre-Zero Hour consensus was that Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce and debuted as Robin, and 12–13 years old when he died. I'm going to refrain from definitively narrowing those age ranges down to single ages, as without a canonical birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, I can't claim, with complete certainty, whether or not his birthday had passed before those three events took place.
If there's any piece of evidence relating to this topic and era of continuity that I didn't include, please let me know. There's always a chance I forgot something, didn't write it down, or just haven't personally seen it. Likewise, if there's something you noticed in this post—logic, reasoning, counterarguments, etc—that I didn't account for, tell me, and I'll try my best to adjust or clarify as needed.
Anyway, that's pretty much everything I have to discuss, like I've covered all the relevant material I know of, as well as the analysis attached to it. This era, specifically the 80's, has the most material regarding Jason's age and continuity as Robin, which makes it annoying to go through, but also probably the most comfortable since there are multiple sources to support each claim.
Following Zero Hour and even Flashpoint, the timeline gets compressed, stretched, and so on, changing Jason's ages with it, but these ages are, from what I can tell, what he was originally intended to be read as. Comic books in general don't have completely linear timelines. It's just the nature of the genre; you can't have reasonably paced stories while also keeping characters the ages you want them to be over decades of publishing.
In my opinion, you're better off reading characters as the age intended in whatever comic you're reading, rather than aging them up or down in accordance with later continuities and retcons, meaning you should use these ages for these events in Jason's life. However, I do understand the need to organize it all into one coherent timeline, evidently, which is why I'm going to go through different ways to do that after I go through post-Zero Hour. Still, I think you should at the very least keep these ages in the back of your head when reading material from the era, especially Jason's original Robin run. It's important context for meta-discussion, as well as the actual stories and Jason's characterization within them.
I'm leaving off here for now because I'm still working on the other parts. I was originally going to do one big post/reblog chain all at once, but lowkey, this is taking forever, and I needed the dopamine hit from posting something before I lost interest and "took a break" (gave up). The other parts will be shorter and less intense, cause there's just not as much stuff to go through, so you don't have to worry about this already long post getting that much longer. Ideally, they'll be posted in the next few days, so...yeah.
Next part is post-Zero Hour. Spoiler alert: there are fewer changes than you'd think! Not much else to add from me. I think I've finally out-yapped myself. There's a first time for everything, I guess.
JASON BEING 15 AT THE AGE OF DEATH IS RETCON FROM LONG AFTER HE ALREADY DIED IN COMICS
Jason was NEVER in his original run claimed to 15. At the CLOSEST there the panel from one of his teen titans teamups where he says something along the lines of "I can't wait until I'm 16", but I stand firm that that's just a sorta milestone age to him, not the upcoming.
So how old IS he? Really? What was his age at the time of death? Well,
He was 12 to 13 years old.
It was established several issues prior to aditf, in Annual 12, That Jason was in the 7th grade. And this comic is close enough to aditf that it's very safe to assume he's still in it, especially with how long some comic years can take.
Jason would've been 12 in seventh grade, unless you opt into the idea the he was held back a year due to dropping out of 5th and needing to catch up, then he would've been 13.
As far as canon material at the time goes, the only time his age at death is outright stated is in the DC Heroes RPG, now, this is an official product, but it's not necessarily canon. However, it's honestly about as canon as the famous death certificate is. And is closer to the time.
It says Jason is deceased, and that he was 13.
Now. I DO hear questions. First and foremost, wasn't Jason 12 when he BECAME Robin? Wouldn't saying he died at 12 give him absolutely no time at all for his run? Wasn't it sorta implied by Dick soon after Jason's death that Jason had at least been Robin for 2 years?
And you're right! So what's the deal?
Well, pre-crisis Jason was 12 when he was adopted. And that usually gets adapted for post, but we never actually get a direct in comic confirmation that he's 12 at the time of his new origin. What we do have is that he dropped out of 5th Grade to take care of his mom.
Taking a look at Batman #408+409. Catherine died in February of the year Batman found Jason. School generally starts in.. let's say August (though can vary depending on your school district and area). I think it makes alot of sense for Jason, age 10, to drop out of 5th grade to help Catherine due to her worsening health, and for her to die that February. I can also imagine her dying when Jason should've been in 6th grade instead as well, making him 11 and having spent more time caring for her. Ultimately that more goes down to how long you want his run to be or if you have extra information from tracking the timeline thoroughly.
You actually go younger if you take info from outside of the comic stories themselves. Like the little qna section at the end of comics. They imply Jason could've been 9 at time of adoption there. Wild stuff
But ultimately, his age around is death is what we have the clearest information on, due to Annual 12 stating the 7th grade. And the game starting 13. He really does rather crisply leave him at, canonically, something close to 12 or 13 at the time of death. Nowhere near 15, and certainly not 16, no matter how much DC tries to age him up or retcon it to be something different, I think it's very important we let him keep that original age he had.
people think bruce had such a hard time dealing with jason but he only had jason until he was 12. talia was the one who actually had to deal with jason’s rebellious teenage phase. thanks to that we got lost days.
The mental back flips people make just to act like they aren't victim blaming while actively doing so... And the fact that 'Jason wasn't victim blamed' has the most votes... This has to be some sort of a joke? What happened to reading comprehension? Common sense? Logical thinking?
But well I guess people can't allow their specialest boys 🥺👉🏻👈🏻 to be blamed for anything so god forbid Bruce or tim wins there... Also it can't be Alfred either because #Alfred Pennyworth is a saint 👼🏻 It also can't be Dick because Dick is a good older brother and he would NEVER!!!! 😠 Other characters? Who's that?🧐 Irrelevant anyway because Jason wasn't victim blamed🙂↔️🙂↔️ All those times when someone said that Jason's recklessness and disobedience killed him? But that isn't victim blaming! We're just blaming the victim's... personality traits!☝🏻 If he only listened to Batman! If he only didn't rush after joker! If he only didn't listen to his mother! If he only didn't run away! If he only realised that Bruce still loved him! If he only told someone about everything! If he only– See? It's his fault that he ended up dead but it's not victim blaming because it's just what he was like!🤓☝🏻Bruce failing Jason as a father which drove Jason away in desperation for parental love? He would never do that because he was a good father!! 🫵🏻😠 Sheila betraying Jason and lying to him to lure him into the warehouse? Did that even happen... 🤨 Joker beating Jason and locking him up in a warehouse rigged to blow up? Well but Jason went there willingly so it's not like he isn't at fault either you see 😁 all those times when tim said he had to do better than Jason so he won't end up like him? Well he was just very passionate about being robin you see and if you think he was implying that Jason's lack of skills was why he died then you're incorrect because tim would never put down a dead child 🙄
"Bruce killed all the villains in Earth-51 and Jason didn't like it, he's such a hypocrite."
A lot of Jason fans fall for this claim, but let's see what exactly is Jason's request regarding the subject:
Batman: Under The Hood
"[...] not talking about Cobblepot and Scarecrow or Clayface. Not Riddler or Dent..."
"Just him [Joker]."
"[...] because he took me away from you."
And there we have it. UTH was never about Bruce killing his adversaries after all, at that precise point it's not even about Bruce killing his adopted son's murderer. What Jason aims with his actions is to question Batman's methods, to confront his adoptive father on his inaction, and to ask for him to finally make a choice:
Batman: Under The Hood
You either let me kill my murderer, or you kill me. Choose which one's the hardest for you to live with.
Is that a reasonable request? That's subjective, and perhaps that's the point. He's a master strategist, trained, ruthless, cunning, the comic proves all of that explicitly; but he's still human, young, victim of murder, and someone's son. Even a master strategist is allowed to be unreasonable, to be emotionally raw, to be emotionally involved.
So what's wrong with Bruce from Earth-51? He did make a choice, but what was it? And what's Jason reaction?
Countdown To Final Crisis
"[...] I wasn't just taking revenge... I was going to war."
"[...] I've got friends up there! You think I'll just sit on my thumbs while they fight and die?"
"He [Earth-51 Bruce] couldn’t deal with my death and turned rogue. You just turned away."
For Jason, it's not about killing any and all villains.
What is it about then? Practicality.
It's not about giving up entirely on justice and people's rehabilitation and ressocialization, it's about being capable of putting a definitive end to the suffering and losses when they reach a certain unforgivable point. But commit no mistakes, nothing and no one gives Jason (or any other character for that matter) the "right" or "authority" to decide who gets to live and who gets to die. That's hardly a question that matters though. Nobody cares, just like nobody cares who gives Batman or any other superhero the "right"/"authority" to do what they do. Jason believes it needs to be done, and so he steps up, it's as simple as that.
That last line about Earth-51 Bruce turning rogue and our Bruce turning away, that's the crux of the matter that most people ignore. Jason doesn't want and never wanted Batman to become a rogue, a villain, a mere executioner. UTH is more than just Batman killing or not, it's about a son wanting justice served by his mentor, teacher and father, it's about a child wanting his unfair and cruel death to mean something to the only person it could've meant anything at that point.
Post-death Jason is, first and foremost, I would say, the Batman mythos' absolute judgment. The dead come alive to judge Batman's actions. He sees what was done for his victimhood using the Bat's MO, and he harshly disapproves of it. Points it out in a way no other character can quite manage because none of them are Bruce's adopted son, Bruce's family, Bruce's responsibility, that he let die, that he distrusted without proof (read: The Diplomat's Son and Consequences), that he marred the name of immediately after his death despite his biological mother using her dying breath to praise his goodness.
Jason is, secondly, I would also say, a counter-argument to Batman's methods. Everyone knows his limit, everyone can and do play with it, everyone knows he won't ever put a definitive stop to it, so what's the point? To make them afraid? They're not afraid. They know nothing he does will stop them forever.
So to conclude this needlessly long ass post (I love writing sorry), Jason isn't being a hypocrite for the simple fact that he himself doesn't want to kill all villains/rogues, doesn't see a need for that unless they step over the line (and yes, it's a nebulous, malleable line based on personal principles, which adds to the complexity (or perhaps mundane humanity) of the character). Not just that, but also because Earth-51 Bruce killing Joker wasn't about his love for Jason nor for justice, it's merely a symptom of his own mental instability (and your usual "Batman won't stop killing if he kills once" narrative that DC loves for some reason). Jason doesn't want that, he wants to matter. Most of all, he wants shit to change. Enough weak excuses against killing homicidal bastards. Enough making killing rogues about the heroes' feelings and/or lack of spine and not the suffering of the people vulnerable to their actions. He wants victims (himself included) to get their justice/revenge (and yeah, I think for him those two things can mingle and may just be one and the same in some cases).
Tl;dr: Earth-51 Bruce is sort of the opposite of our Bruce. Where our Bruce's sins lays in his inaction and ineffectiveness, Earth-51 Bruce's sins lays in his extremist actions and principles. Jason cares for neither, he cares for practicality and justice for the ones who are cruelly victimized like he was.
PS: This post is based on my own interpretation of the comics and the characters involved.
It’s interesting how Bruce seems almost incapable of making concessions with reality. (That’s what Jason’s killing boils down to, regardless of how much genuine contempt and hatred he might feel for Joker.) For Bruce, an action must either be fundamentally Just or fundamentally Unjust.
Thinking about how 408 says Batman only visits crime alley once a year and 416 where Bruce narrates how “Jason was desperate to get out on his own” and like,,
Do you think that for a few years, it was just Robin covering crime alley. (I think the people of crime alley would remember that.)
Yes, UtH is a tragedy, but aging Jason up too much before he gets put in the Lazarus Pit really robs you of the comedy of a 16-18 year old doing all that.
feet not ever touching the floor. i imagine hes making sketchy mischievous deals with these grown ass men and theyre trying reeaaaalll hard not to laugh in his face
"erm id like some military supplies pls!" like what are we even doing atp
Racism in fandom spaces is actually insanely bad and if you ever try to downplay or avoid conversations about it because "fandom is supposed to be fun" then I'm not sorry to say this: You're adding on to the problem.
If POC speaking up about a fandom's racism issue offends you more than the racism itself, you need to think about that. You need to think about how POC fighting racism offends you more than the racism.
It was a huge milestone of scientific and technological advancement. (Plus, at the time, politically significant). Humanity went to space! We set foot on a celestial body that was not earth for the first time in human history! That’s a big deal! I’ve never thought about it before but now that I have, it’s ridiculous to me that that’s not part of our everyday lives and the public consciousness anymore. Why don’t we have a public holiday and a family barbecue about it. Why have I never seen the original broadcast of the moon landing? It should be all over the news every year!
It’s July 20th. That’s the day of the moon landing. Next year is going to be the 54th anniversary. I’m ordering astronaut shaped cookie cutters on Etsy and I’m going to have a goddamn potluck. You’re all invited.
PITCH: We call it Moon Day, and then every 7 years when it falls on a Monday, that's an even BIGGER deal and we call that Moon Day Monday and go absolutely apeshit about it (the next Moon Day Monday is in 2026 so we have a couple trial runs first)
I scheduled this in 2025 to give you all a week to make Moon Day Monday preparations! I think I will order a little rocket cake or bake some moon phase cookies!
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