#aspec discourse

[queerum]

aspec person:kinda fucked up that some queer people think aspecs aren't queer unprompted allo person: oh but what they mean is that you're not in danger because you're still basically cis/straight. They're right but you're still part of the community

even ignoring the casual aphobia of saying aspecs are cishet-lite, i'm tired of those kind of exchanges so let's be for fucking real right now:

Proof that aspecs go through conversion therapy:

The “A” Is Not for Ally: The Continued Pathologization of Asexual People in Modern Mental Health Practices

Better understanding of the scope and nature of LGBTQA+ religious conversion practices will support recovery

Proof that aspec have high rates of suicidality and self-harm:

Intersectional Impact of Allosexism Experiences on Non‐Suicidal Self‐Injury Among Asexual Youth

An Intersectional Exploration of Outness, Encountered Discrimination and Violence, and Non-Suicidal Self-Injury among Asexual Youth across Gender Identities

Variations in suicidality across multiple social identities in asexual people: An intersectionality analysis

Comparing Asexual and Non-Asexual Sexual Minority Adolescents and Young Adults: Stressors, Suicidality, and Mental and Behavioural Health Risk Outcomes

Proof that aspecs go through corrective rape and assault:

Sexual Violence Against the Asexual Community

A quantitative examination of the role of relationship status in asexual college students’ sexual victimization

Battling Asexual Discrimination, Sexual Violence And 'Corrective' Rape

and that list of reputable sources took less than 20 minutes of research. you just don't want to recognize it.

[aro-ace-culture-is]

Aroace culture is learning about late 2010's a-spec discourse on tumblr after the fact, and being like "hold on, THAT'S where that horrible piece of my aroace journey came from?" bc its insane to see how far Bad Opinion spread with how chronically offline you were in that era.

I'm so glad I wasn't exposed to that when I was figuring stuff out, it would have messed me up so much worse that I already am.

.

[a-polite-melody]

Framing the discourse surrounding trans men and mascs coining a term for the intersectional oppression that we face as a “transmasc vs transfem discourse” is such a huge pet peeve of mine.

Similarly to how I disliked aspec discourse being framed as “aspec vs LGBT”—before the usage of the phrase “ace discourse” blew up—because of that framing giving validity to the idea that aspec inclusion could be harmful to our community. When, actually, what was happening was that a part of our community that has endured erasure were trying to do things to combat that erasure often through the coining of new terms such as aphobia and were being helped by other people within the wider LGBT+ community, even those who weren’t aspec themselves. And a loud-but-vocal minority of people who wanted to make sure their spot in the “who’s the most oppressed” hierarchy wasn’t disrupted and didn’t want to wrestle with the idea they had unchecked internalized biases got angry and tried to oust that entire identity sub-community and the people who had been supporting them by framing the bid for visibility of aspecs as a plot to overshadow or remove the movements for support of “more oppressed” LGBT people than aspecs.

And… reading the above… I think you can see why I’m making this comparison in how we’re framing discourse.

[rhad-barks]

how on earth are we still having aspec and mspec and neopronoun discourse it's almost 2024 do you guys understand that we need to embrace all sides of the queer community or the infighting will get us all killed. do you get that. lawmakers want all of us dead whether we're queers with palatable easy to understand identities or cishet alloaro men or he/him lesbians or genderfluid fagdykes with emojiself pronouns. in a world that's trying to erase us all we have is each other Do You Understand That. please be kind to people with identities you might not understand or agree with because they deserve to live freely as much as you do.

[cultist-bones]

Let me preface this by saying: You can do whatever you want forever. It's fanfiction, it's fandom, and it's meant to be fun. Please continue doing what makes you happy. I'm not angry at you, nor anyone. Im just angry at the world that made us think the way we do.

Aro/ace characters in fandom spaces. This is a topic we've been grappling with for how many years now. Aromantic does not automatically imply Asexuality. Asexuality does not automatically imply Aromanticism. It's a wide spectrum and there are sex/romance-favourable aros/aces/aroaces. All of that is true, all of it is valid and all of it is worthy of representation.

But the room for sex/romance-repulsed aspec folks in fandom spaces is really well known for being incredibly small and narrow.

So, here's the perspective of a repulsed aroace person who's been in the backseat of fandom spaces for all of it's live, is very disinterested in shipping and generally ignores canon in favor of ignoring relationships. The exact type of person most fandom spaces sees as someone who wants to ruin the fun.

Shipping and orientation + gender headcanons have been INTRINSICALLY part of fandom spaces since the start of fandom culture itself. Why is that? Well, everyone wants to see a part of themselves in a character they relate to. Whether that be a direct projection of their queerness, disabilities or opinions or a general way to explore those factors.

Asking someone to just. Not. Do those things is quite frankly going against the nature of fandom spaces themselves. That should be an established fact.

The problem lies in the constant us vs them issue. This isn't black and white. Stop treating everything like there is an objective universal definition of good and bad.

Lets take one of the most popular examples, Alastor, the big controversial figure. Im not even in the Hazbin fandom so here's my honest unbiased take: do. Whatever the hell. You want.

With a catch.

Instead of ignoring canon or just pretending it doesn't exist: acknowledge it, say you're aware and then continue. You aren't hurting anyone by shipping a canonically aspec character as long as you KNOW and ACKNOWLEDGE that he is a canonically aspec character. You're allowed to play with what-if scenarios and ships for no reason but the hell of it. That is the whole point of fandoms in the first place. To explore and have fun with the characters and story you love. Just say "hey! I know this character is aspec but i just want to play around!" And that's that! Do whatever you want forever :]

That being said there's more I'd like to bring up: If someone headcanons a character as repulsed aspec, please, please, PLEASE don't chase them out of the fandom. They want to see themselves in a character just as much as you do!! They want to play dolls just as much as you do!!

"But, they're ignoring canon! This character canonically has a wife/husband and kids!!" So? When has that ever been an issue for us? We've been making canonically straight characters queer for years!! We've never cared for canon. Ever!! Please, extend that same understanding to your aspec brothers, sisters and siblings! I'll say it once and I'll say it again, they only want that same feeling you do, even if you dont quite understand it!

And a more. Critical take of mine but: we don't need to make every story about shipping. WAIT WAIT. WIAT. HOLD ON. WAIT. BEFORE YOU SCROLL AND LEAVE ME IN THE DUST WAIT.

I said previously that shipping and such is intrinsically part of fandom culture. This is VERY much true.

But the ideas: "Fandoms were, are and will always be big on shipping" and "Fandoms should not make every story about relationships and every character incomplete without a partner" can, do, and SHOULD co-exist.

I raise you the question: When does your genuine interest in the media start and where does your interest in shipping end? Do you really like the show, media, book, videogame or do you just want to play house with its characters and make them your own? And listen. There is no shame in that. I dont personally like the idea, but again, there is no shame in wanting to do those things.

Critical thinking caps on here.

This is a bit more biased of a take, and it frustrates me a lot because of personal experiences, but I'm not a fan of when characters and stories are boiled down to be nothing but grounds to make people kiss or fuck nasty. AND AGAIN. IM NOT AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO DO THAT. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. THIS IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

I like fandom spaces because I like seeing what others feel or think about a character or the story. People's AUs and Headcanons. Characters interactions with all manner of things.

And in the end. That's the exact same thing Allo people are doing. Just in a different way than me. And yeah, I don't understand it. Does that mean i think they're all stupid and need to strictly obey every rule? No, not at all.

All i ask. Genuinely ALL i ask. Is that you'll extend the same sentiment to me and my repulsed aspec siblings.

Thank you for reading all of this. Im sorry if i hurt you in any way. Goodbye and I love you.

[princess-of-morkva]

recently saw a post that went something like:

"imagine there is a guy in your show who shows interest in me, says so on screen, has never shown any interest in women etc. even though he said he was 'gay' in that exact term, you wouldn't say he isn't and ship him with a woman? that would be erasure, right?

but then people do exactly that to aspec characters (that have stated they have no interest in sex/romance or even expressed explicit dislike gor those)"

and i wanted to extend on it a little.

because, that is exactly the behaviour i see in some (straight) people regarding gay characters. they might often think they're not homophobic. they are "okay" with homosexuality and all that, but it makes them uncomfortable when two dudes kiss, on their screen! why would you think that character is gay, he never said so! - (it was very much implied).

it's this willful blindness towards queer identities. the same thing as "it's unrealistic to have this queer character in a historical drama!"

it's "i'm okay with you on paper, but i don't like acknowledging your existence until i really have to"

when people willingly ignore a-spec characters in fandom, it's really not different. those people might not think they are aphobic by doing so - but they don't really like acknowledging our presence, do they? it's such a chore. "why can't i ship this character? he never said he's aro."

because you won't acknowledge us until it's said right into your face. and it shouldn't be necessary.

a-spec people exist, and many of them don't have the access to relevant language to describe themselves.

your aro/ace character shouldn't have to scream at you about it for you to accept it.

(and yes, this does betray your treatment of actual, real life a-spec people, whether you like to think it or not)

[if-loki-was-a-fox]

it's always a little frustrating to me when aroallo people don't understand or care about asexuality

I know that aroallo-ness has it's own struggles, amatanormativity and heteronormativity hate us all in unique and intersecting ways and it definitely sucks for aroallo folk (especially with how I've seen plenty of people talk about how they get the least explicit canon rep in fiction out of all the aro/ace combos) ...but sometimes it feels like a lot of aroallo people start taking that frustration out on aroace/ace-ness, instead of amatanormativity/heteronormativity and the aphobic/uncaring allo folk who enforce it. Y'know, the people who actually dislike aromanticism and asexuality, and who really don't give a shit about nuanced and varied aro rep.

(presumably there's also alloace people out there who are the same about aromanticism too -- I'm just talking about aroallo people because that's what I have personally been seeing, and I don't want to just make shit up about the alloaces.)

[silvermoon424]

I seriously hate the “aro/ace people aren’t oppressed enough to be part of the LGBTQ+ community” argument so much. We may not get denied healthcare but most cishet people absolutely think there’s something “wrong” with us that needs to be “fixed.” I’ve lost count of the amount of times aro/ace people have been called “mentally ill” or even “not fully human” because we either don’t experience romantic/sexual attraction or we experience it differently than allo people do.

People really don’t understand just how prevalent amatonormativity is in virtually every culture. And let it be known that the same structures and beliefs that demonize aro/ace people for not confirming to society’s expectations of what a monogamous, “normal” relationship “should” be and what people should aspire towards also demonize other queer people for not fitting in, too.

Also, I don’t get the “you must be THIS oppressed to join the club” mentality. While it’s absolutely true (and we should never forget that) the queer community was and still is founded out of a need for mutual care and protection against a society that hates and misunderstands us, we’re also still fighting to end that oppression. And if that oppression lessens or even ends, it shouldn’t erase our identities. I think of it like this: if misogyny were to suddenly disappear, that wouldn’t make me any less of a woman because my experiences and identity as a woman are not solely defined by sexism. Likewise, if queerphobia were to vanish, LGBTQ+ people would still have strong identities because there are so many things about being queer that are not and should not be defined by oppression.

Idk, exclusionist thought (especially within the queer community) just bothers me so much.