sorry if you’ve answered this before!! What do you think education looks like on Eden? Obviously lots of propaganda, but what’s the real world grade level equivalent? Or in the COI?
Education on Eden, Simon's Knowledge & Skills: A Masterlist Deepdive
NOTE: I am extrapolating from canon. These are all just headcanons and theories as I try to make the most sense out of Iron Lung! I'm also tangent-ing a little bit, but it all leads up to a point. I do my best to make it seem plausible in-universe, and back myself up with movie scenes.
To answer this, we have to look at Eden's original purpose. This is all about context.
Based on some quick math, I assume Simon was around 15 12 years old when the Quiet Rapture happened (and if we also assume he's Markiplier's age, 36 33 at the time of Iron Lung). As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, Eden was originally a bright and booming Mars colony, who fell into mass psychosis after the Quiet Rapture. The first generation of people sent there were incredibly skilled, brilliant scientists. Nobody was actually intending to live on Eden full-time; it was meant to be a "mothership" or a trading hub. Everybody was focused on Mars.
The Station was named Eden in the same way the Apollo/Artemis were named after Greek Gods. I don't think there were truly any "serious" religious overtones happening at this time. It was named Eden because it was the first Martian agricultural center. No shit, people from Earth would name it that.
Then the Rapture happened, and the world vanished from under their feet. It would be like driving out to another town to buy food and hang out, only for the entire planet to suddenly disappear out from under you, and you're stuck with everyone who just so happened to be at the grocery store with you at the same time. It was that jarring. Of course, I'm being hyperbolic a little bit. Because of this sudden catastrophe, Eden had to immediately pivot and turn every single available resource inward just to survive.
Because it was never meant to be the "main" Mars location, Eden didn't have a traditional school structure ready. Instead, education became about survival skills, passed down through experience and word-of-mouth. You learned as you went.
Despite that, I think Simon grew up a very well-learned kid, or was on the path to become one. I see him as a great pilot in another universe where things were better, and I've tried to extend his love for navigation into his time on Eden as a fanatical soldier, just as Iron Lung punctuated his incredible ability to navigate and read/interpret maps. My personal headcanon is that his mom was part of the science team and was absolutely hellbent on raising a smart child to uphold their legacy. (I actually wrote a scene about this in Terminal Lucidity, where Simon remembers being a rowdy little boy slacking off on school and stealing his mom's ship to go orbit and 'get away from it all'):
Honestly, I think all the second-generation kids on Eden were essentially on an IEP (Individualized Education Program). These weren’t normal citizens up there; they were the children of scientists trying to preserve their knowledge. Their parents were their teachers before they all spiraled into a cult.
Simon was likely doing leaps and bounds in advanced schooling up until around the cult started to cultivate soldiers. By our standards, he’s essentially a high-school dropout with a very specific skill set.
Speaking of skill sets...
Simon's Skills
I've compiled a list of some things you might want to consider adding to Simon's background!
From Pre-Rapture Mars/Eden...
Simon understands orbital trajectories, gravitational slingshots, and stellar mapping on a base level. Most people who engage in active space travel would know this. This is the equivalent of knowing how to drive a car, these days.
He would also know how to space-walk if need be, for outer shell repairs or emergency situations. Everyone on a space station should have inherently known how to do this.
Since Eden was possibly a Martian agricultural center, Simon would have basic-to-intermediate knowledge of closed-loop life support systems, chemical water purification, and maintaining soil/nutrient balances in artificial environments. If you don't know how to garden on Eden, you're a shame on the family name.
Simon was not a gardener, that being said, and there's a big reason why he didn't get on with the cult thing very well. He was a soldier who watched people "garden" for ~21 years. Agriculture is an "in-theory" guessing game to him.
He has a high-school level education, just the same as most people. In fact, he's quite offended when the COI assumes he can't read; guffaws like it's a ridiculous thing to say.
Going into headcanon territory pretty hard here: He would have an inherent knowledge of how to protect himself from dust, the cold, and of the traversal of barren, rocky terrain on Mars. He may have been a child on Mars, but his mother never let him go outside without something to protect his face with; note the high collar on Simon's hood. He doesn't trip often; he's heavy-footed when he walks. Buncha rocks on Mars.
Because he grew up there, Simon can navigate the sectors of Eden completely by touch and sound. He knows exactly how many paces it takes to get from his living space to the airlocks to the gardens. It is home. He can wander it the same way someone wanders to their fridge with all the lights off for shredded cheese at 3 AM.
From Post-Rapture Eden...
In a scarcity crisis, there are no spare parts. Simon knows how to jerry-rig if he needs to, but it's basic and born from stubbornness. Simon refuses to let his own tech fail on him. He's not an engineer by any means, he just knows how to do the equivalent of kicking a vending machine until it works again.
Simon would be very good at resource allocation. I think most people in the IL universe would be. He can stretch the bare minimum as long as he needs to, however, when things get desperate enough, he will act on impulse. We see him do this with the water in the movie. There's a nuance here. Base human need wins out in the end.
Simon's navigational skills have tipped me off on the idea that he sports good piloting skills from before the Lung entirely. He didn't read the manual of the SM-13 until he was forced to, because he just assumed he didn't need them; the cockpit was incredibly rudimentary (I also sort of stole this trait from Mark, who has repeatedly mentioned his favorite scenes in IL being the mundane task of driving around).
To survive the mass religious psychosis on Eden, Simon learned how to completely shut off his emotional responses during high-stress or horrific events and take control of a situation. He can witness horrors, perform terrible acts for survival, and maintain a poker face through it all, despite feeling horrible about it. Simon starts to crack when he truly realizes there's no way out of the Iron Lung, and they are not coming to save him. He did genuinely believe he could take control of the situation in Iron Lung and get out of there. He was so confident, at first. I also caught him doing this "poker face" at Ava.
Simon knows exactly where clothes wear out first in a space station—the knees, elbows, and shoulders from brushing against narrow, metallic corridors and ladders. He would know how to harvest and utilize scrap cloth to his advantage (as we see with the MANY patches on his clothes.)
Keeping shoes from falling apart on hard metal flooring without replacement soles is an art form. He would know how to use industrial adhesive (salvaged from maintenance bays) or melted plastic to recast worn-down heels, and how to fashion makeshift structural inserts out of scrap to keep the soles rigid. I mean, have you seen this guy's shoes? He's practically wearing trash on his feet, but you can clearly see that it works:
He'd know the basics of converting raw, Martian-native produce into something shelf stable and filling. Notice how everyone in Iron Lung is skinny except Simon. Simon's huge. Simon ate good on Eden; he knew what the hell he was doing. Dude's a foodie on the down-low.
Simon can chew and swallow things that are texturally horrific, though, much to his dismay, he's got a strong stomach. Slimy, bitter, or completely flavorless without gagging. His palate has been entirely deadened by ~21 years of eating for survival rather than pleasure. Note that Simon only finally lost his stomach after getting vaporized by the Anomaly, and it was blood.
Simon will do what he can to stay clean with no water. He possibly may have resorted to using things like industrial cleaner or non-body safe chemicals just for something. Note my passage from Terminal Lucidity, where he also has to wash his clothes in the shower, and he has 16 seconds to wash up:
I took this detail from a captivating article on what it's like to live in a sterile, limited-resource environment from a Royal Navy marine.
From Being the Butcher...
You don't get a name like "The Butcher" without knowing exactly where a body's weak points are. He likely possesses an understanding of human anatomy in some way.
Fighting inside a space station means no loud, high-caliber firearms (unless you want to blow a hole in the hull). Simon would be an expert in close-quarters combat using blunt instruments, blades (his ritual knife), or environmental hazards.
He can use an environment to his advantage, judging from how resourceful he was in the hemorover. Simon has flashbacks in the movie to standing on piles-upon-piles of bodies. He's dangerous.
You would think Simon would be prison smart and traumatized from the bigger and badder, but he's not. He was the guy people had to be prison smart to avoid. At his worst, he knows when to abuse his own reputation for his own benefit. (You want the Butcher?)
Simon can look at someone and know how to make them fold instantly, just from being observant. He notices your limp, your sore muscle spots, your eyes deadening at certain topics, exactly how dicey you might be on just body language alone. He has gotten incredibly good at reading people because, what's humanity's biggest threat if not itself? People were eating each other on those stations. Being observant is hard-wired into him.
I hope this gives writers everything they're looking for and thensome on Simon's education and know-how!
Honestly, the more I think about him the worse I feel for him, and I know that to some extent he has gotten his happy ending, but we don't see much from it other than an interview confirmation that he and Mobei Jun had ended up together.
This is not going to be an in depth character analysis like I did with Mu Qing, I'm just ranting to get my thoughts out.
So first and foremost, let's start with his life before the transmigration. His parents divorced and he wasn't really wanted by either sides. That is already a painful thing to know and realise as an adult, let alone when you have time to internalise it ever since childhood.
As a writer, he had to abandon his own principles and artistic visions to make ends meet. I do think that Shang Qinghua does enjoy being a ragebaiter as a writer, based on the way he was reading the comments and his reactions to them in the Airplane extras (SVSS vol. 4 if you have the published books), but at the end of the story in book 3, the way he told Shen Qingqiu about how he didn't start out writing things like this and this was not what he wanted, it read so bittersweet to me, even if he said it jokingly. And while we could debate that you have to give some things up in order to follow your dreams, is it still your dream if you had to abandon what you actually wanted to do?
Also, the way he highlights that writing a novel is a lonely thing. We only see him as a shut in and he doesn't think back to having any friends at any point in the extras, so we can assume he didn't have any.
And, in my opinion, that doesn't change after the transmigration.
I read fics because I do love Moshang a lot, but I genuinely don't know how I feel about Shen Qingqiu and Shang Qinghua's "friendship". I guess this is like shipping FengQing for me when in the books I said there was no love lost between them.
I don't think Shen Yuan cares much other than the fact that Shang Qinghua is convenient. Shang Qinghua annoys him on every turn, and Shen Yuan can't help but fall for the ragebait. He has Shang Qinghua help him with the mushroom body, but he doesn't think of him fondly at all. Once again, no love lost between them. I can't claim that Shen Yuan wouldn't help Shang Qinghua if the tables had turned, like when Shang Qinghua left Mobei Jun and he and Binghe took him in for dinner and a chat. So I think he would help, but he'd be a bitch about it the entire way. I don't know if I'd consider them genuinely friends, but maybe that's just my own standards.
And another thing is that how willing Shang Qinghua is to accept the abuse. We can argue that being hit by Shen Qingqiu's fan is one thing, that they are in a setting and they're both guys so then tussling is normal (? I still don't think it's healthy or good, but I also am a woman and therefore can't accurately judge how far guys are willing to go like that). But it is also a fact that he endured Mobei Jun beating him for years.
Shang Qinghua is portrayed as cowardly and thick faced, who will take whatever humiliation as long as he gets to survive at the end, but I genuinely think that this is something to think about a bit deeper. Because yes, he does get fed up and hits Mobei Jun back when he knows the demon can't retaliate, since Shang Qinghua is not stupid enough to fight the demon outright, but for the most part, he just takes it. He took the humiliating treatment in the Airplane extras. He took Mobei Jun kicking him and tossing him into his possible death on Maigu Ridge when he threw him into the cave to check what's inside, and then still went out of his way to save Mobei Jun when he flew after him on the sword. (Whether or not this was needed is another debate, because couldn't Mobei Jun just rip a portal in the air and teleport himself onto the ground? Food for thought for another day.) And he went and faced Linguang Jun to save Mobei Jun when it was almost certain death for him if Mobei Jun didn't miraculously push through everything.
Yes, I know Mobei Jun is his ideal man. Yes, I know that Mobei Jun probably changed after the Airplane extras. But Shang Qinghua had no way of knowing he would when he did all that. He just took the hits and helped anyway.
There is an argument to be made that Shang Qinghua knew what kind of man Mobei Jun could be like since he was the one who created him, but my counter argument would be that at this point the story had changed so much that there was no guarantee for that. Luo Binghe, the one Shang Qinghua spent the most time honing in the original novel, has changed, why is it impossible for Mobei Jun, a side character who was most likely not flashed out enough to show that he could be kind and caring, to turn out differently than what Shang Qinghua dreamed of? There were so many variables by the end that there were simply too many risks in my opinion.
It could be seen as romantic, that Shang Qinghua persevered for the man, and that Mobei Jun ends up changing for him, but... I don't know. I also want to argue that we can't judge Mobei Jun by modern, real word standards, because those are not the standards the SVSS universe abides by. He's a demon and even if he was human, the way he grew up would absolutely prevent him from understanding love and care and from knowing how to show it. So the same way we can't judge historical figures from hundreds of years ago by today's standards, I don't want to judge a fictional character by real word standards, but it's making it very, very hard. Maybe I'm just not cut out for dark romance. Honestly, at this point, I'm just bombing my own ships. (This will not stop me from shipping Moshang and reading fics about them, so I will gladly take my little hypocrite badge, thank you very much.)
Anyway, my point is, Shang Qinghua is... a very worrying character. I love him, I desperately want to give him a hug, but he is a very sad man.
So yeah. Shang Qinghua is a very sad character, and I love him so much. He needs a hug and sooooooooo much therapy.
He has pretty much subscribed to the low views everyone has of him. He doesn't have dignity, he doesn't have any pride, he just takes whatever harsh words or actions are thrown at him as long as he lives another day. And the worst thing is, we genuinely don't see any good to him. Shen Qingqiu doesn't consider anything good about him, and even when we read Shang Qinghua's own POV in the Airplane extras, it's so self-effacing. He's the lord of the "lame peak" that everyone bosses around, the other peak lords don't think anything of him, except maybe Yue Qingyuan who might somewhat recognise that he's useful because he probably understands how much trouble it is to handle logistics for the sect, but even then, it's most likely not fondness but the fact that he's trying to get taxes and logistics off his own plate. (Being a side character with no POV, we don't know his actual thoughts.)
Shang Qinghua has literally no self-worth and it shows deeply in his actions for the most part, until the very end of the Airplane extras.
The Problematicity of Mythal (and why it's good, actually)
(I know "problematicity" isn't a word.)
Why am I writing this? I saw a post claiming that the way (Flem)Mythal is treated in Veilguard is sexist. She is, apparently, unnecessarily vilified to further "a man's" (Solas') narrative and "woobify" him.
As your local Mythal hater and Solas apologist, I can't let that stand. I am frustrated over how Mythal was handled in Veilguard, but why don't we look at the actual text and see why/how she was done dirty in that game?
Disclaimer:
What I desperately need everyone to understand, is that just because a character is abusive and toxic (or can be read/interpreted to be), that does not mean it's a "bad character". And also, people who like that character or don't read it the same way others do, are not automatically "bad people".
Literature, and, by extension, games, exist in a diverse world with a diverse audience, and many people will come to different conclusions/interpretations based on their own experiences.
It is, in fact, possible to deeply appreciate characters you absolutely loathe - for their place in the narrative, for the artfulness of their dialogue, for their aesthetics, for their wit and intelligence,... etc.
So when I say "I hate Mythal", that is me, my innermost, emotional self talking - not the academic who views literature as a skill, and Mythal as a genius narrative construct. Both things can exist and be true.
This is not a callout, which is why I'm not linking or tagging OP. I was just inspired to write this whole thing and, actually, now that I'm done, I'm grateful OP made me think about all of this so deeply.
Immediately beginning in DAO, Flemeth is an intriguing but difficult character. She's an older woman, she's not "video game pretty" for the time, she has a scratchy voice (with a stellar performance by Kate Mulgrew), and she's kind of mean and obnoxious - but in a motherly way.
If we listen closely to Morrigan's dialogue with Alistair or Leliana, however, we very quickly gain some perspective:
Flemythal may act as the "strange old woman", a bit funny in the head, a little creepy, maybe, but definitely benevolent (hah!) towards the player. Her hidden vitriol against Morrigan only shines through in a very subtle way that allows for plausibel deniability.
But what we get from Morrigan herself, is way more direct: Flemythal is an emotionally (and maybe also physically) neglectful parent, who burdens her child with way too much adult responsibility too quickly, and chastises any show of emotion, until Morrigan, as an adult, is completely emotionally stunted, unable to trust and/or express herself freely. What Morrigan mentions in the above banter would definitely be counted as abuse by today's standards.
We don't know how old Morrigan was exactly, but, to me, "little girl" implies under the age of 12, at least. It's also not the only incident she talks about, all her banter is here. We can have a discussion over "is this really abuse, considering the medieval-inspired fantasy setting?" - measuring fantasy by modern standards is a little iffy - but since Morrigan definitely comes out of it changed for the worse, obviously traumatized, I'm going to call it abuse all day long.
What's "problematic" is NOT that Flemythal is shown to abuse her daughter. It's actually very cleverly done! The veneer of motherly care (if spiky), the guise of the "strange old woman", the way she acts sympathetic towards the Warden - we find her weird, sure, but ultimately "probably on our side" "probably a good guy". Meanwhile, only through engaging more deeply and personally with her victim, Morrigan, do we gain the whole story. This is exactly how parental abuse works in the real world. "Yeah, she's a bit weird, but she's still your mother, dude."
What's truly problematic, in my opinion, is how these edges, these themes, were sanded down in Veilguard. But I'm getting ahead of myself. The point, so far, is this:
Flemythal shows herself to be a neglectful, potentially abusive, mother, even as early as DAO.
Once we deliver Flemythal's amulet in DA2, this exchange happens:
Even Hawke recognizes that the relationship between Flemythal and Morrigan is weird.
Flemythal herself drops a TON of hints in this conversation ("do you know who I am beyond that title?" "the People bend the knee too quickly" "I am but a fragment cast adrift from the whole. A bit of flotsam to cling to in the storm" - confirming that she is definitely not fully THE Mythal), and she talks about "having an appointment to keep", how she has "much to do" (I seriously wonder what she did between DA2 and DAI, but we will likely never know), ending in a real gut-punch of a line for any Solavellan:
"Regret is something I know well. Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul." (Clearly referencing Solas; My guess is she knows where Solas is sleeping and they're possibly already planning something together;)
Kate Mulgrew is great here. She manages to make Flemythal sound like the terrifying predator (dragon) that she obviously is, while also letting her spirit-nature (Benevolence - inherently patronizing but also sympathetic) shine through.
Despite her outfit, which is a symptom of the times, I guess, she's still off-putting - because she speaks in riddles, never gives a straight answer, refuses to help more when she obviously could, and laughs in that superior way.
(Is this still Flemeth? Flemythal? Truly "only" a fragment of Mythal herself in the form of Flemeth but without her body and personality? I'm gonna go with: This is Mythal with a few idiosyncrasies she's picked up from Flemeth. She obviously has a physical body, though - who's is it? Who's body does she have in DAI? Ah... I would pay money for clarification from the writers. But they probably never thought too hard about it lol.)
Anyway: She gets to fill a role that female characters don't really get that often. She's allowed to be old but also show skin. She's allowed to be abrasive and also a mentor figure (not the typical "mother" archetype, not the "wise old woman", either). She appears in armor and a crown, and she does not give a shit about anything except her own ends, only helping someone else out because it benefits her directly (not out of the goodness of her heart, which would typically be expected of a mother-coded character).
When we add this to what happened in DAO? That's rare.
That's SO rare!
Female characters did NOT get to be LIKE THAT at that point in time. Old and "ugly" (DAO) or old and sexy (DA2). Abrasive. Abusive. Neglectful. Cruel. Ruthlessly pragmatic. Superior. Arrogant. And all of it without being sexualized AND without getting "corrected" or "knocked down a peg" (sure, you can defeat her as a dragon, but she isn't really "humbled", she just dies without any "lessons learned"). She's also not a straight-up villain (like any other female character like this would usually be).
Dragon Age really did something here. They created a character against a lot of "agreed upon" convention and people (rightfully!) adored her. Even through her inherently problematic treatment of Morrigan. (This is where nuance MUST enter into the discussion - adoring a character who gets to break out of a gendered stereotype is not the same as endorsing every single thing that character does.)
In DAI, our introduction to Flemythal is chilling (especially for anyone who has had to suffer abusive parents in reality):
In a sickly-sweet, sarcastic tone, Flemythal once again makes it seem as if Morrigan is overreacting, like she is somehow silly and unjustified in her worry over her son.
We also get some lore: "She is a part of me, no more separate than your heart from your chest." Implying that "Flemeth" hasn't really existed ever since Mythal possessed her. My guess is, they mixed personalities. So some of her more abrasive, cruel tendencies may also have been Flemeth's, to be Fair And Balanced(tm).
And then she says her famous line, replying to the question "Why did Mythal come to you?":
"For a reckoning that will shake the very heavens."
What does she mean? Did she originally think she'd work together with Solas? Was it she who awakened Solas? The one who gave him the task of unlocking his Orb? Is this what she did during DA2/between DA2 and DAI? Is he her "appointment" she has to keep in DA2? Solas doesn't seem the least bit surprised to see her in the after-credits scene of DAI - is that him returning to her, informing her of his failure? Was the whole entirety of DAI his mission in her service?
Anyway, she also says something very telling to, once again, Morrigan (her interactions with the Inquisitor are jovial and sympathetic, but when she speaks to Morrigan, she slips back into invalidation and chastisement):
"You seek to preserve the powers that were, but to what end? It is because I taught you, girl."
And later:
If the Inquisitor attacks Flemythal:
Just like she groomed and taught Solas (getting ahead of myself but oh well), she also did the very same thing with Morrigan: She didn't raise a daughter - she groomed a Second. A Successor. Someone who could act independently, yes. But also someone who would hunger for her approval and ultimately, one way or another, follow her command.
And Morrigan even reacted to this similarly to Solas! She got arrogant, hiding her emotional vulnerability that her mother beat out of her (not necessarily physically) behind a thick wall of hardened pride. She also grew up wary of others, relying on no one but herself (except ONE friend - the Warden; Felassan for Solas;), always plotting, anticipating everyone's next move, instinctive pattern-recognition as self-defense. A very common trauma response in abuse victims.
This is also why Solas and Morrigan constantly snipe at each other: They experienced similar abuse, and they each see their own weakness and vulnerability reflected back at them in the other. People hate that.
ANYWAY. Then Flemythal lets us know her plan: "I will see her (Mythal) avenged." And she gets pretty emotional about it. More emotional than she's ever been. So far, she's been glib, sarcastic, abrasive, sometimes sympathetic - but now she's outright yelling. So it's clear this is what she actually wants.
Did she want this back in DAO? Or is this what the fragment from DA2 wants? Again: Is this still the "same" Flemeth? Oh well.
Then comes her proposal towards Morrigan, where Flemythal becomes outright threatening again:
So there we finally have it:
Flemeth/Flemythal/Mythal is a character with one emotional core drive: Vengeance.
Female characters are/were allowed to be vengeful, but they usually have to be ~sexy~ while in the state - and they usually get humbled in some way. Either after their plans for revenge flop (with a "violence is never the answer, especially not for women, kids!" "moral lesson" attached), or after their plans for revenge succeed, but of course they now feel terrible because it didn't plug the hole in their heart (only marriage and friendship and having babies can do that! duh! /s)
But Flemythal gets to be vengeful AND successful. And she even gets to be visibly old! She gets everything she wants here in DAI: She gets Morrigan to drink from the Well (at least potentially), she gets the Old God Soul (Urthemiel, probably June), Corypheus (Solas' blunder) is dealt with, and, once again, SHE was the deciding factor - a huge boost for her ego.
The amazing thing is: She gets to be a hero, in a way - WHILE also being a neglectful, abusive mother. She's both a sympathetic victim (Mythal was murdered, Flemeth was imprisoned, and let's be real, probably raped), AND also abrasive, pragmatic, and cruel.
So much so that Morrigan says this banger line, a rallying cry for all abused daughters everywhere:
And this finally seems to move something in Flemythal, so much so that she even acknowledges her own failing as a mother (in a tiny way):
If Kieran doesn't exist, we only see Flemythal at the shrine where we also see her callous abrasiveness, her unwillingness to coddle and truly support, shine through:
She needs the Inquisitor to succeed. She needs Morrigan alive. But she still just lets the events play out as they will. She isn't a mother figure in the traditional sense - she only gives tools and cryptic advice, and expects something in return (favors, obedience, adoration) without truly getting involved, truly protecting like the stereotypical, archetypal "I will die for my children" mother figure would.
(Now I'm actually thinking: What if she engineered her own murder to make Solas do something that she knew he would have been too careful and ethical to attempt without significant emotional force? She believed him about the Blight but saw no other way than getting Solas so angry and desperate that he'd try the impossible. For her. - Ohhhh my blood is running cold.)
Okay, now we're all caught up on what Flemythal was in the "old" games. A complex, complicated, extremely grey female character, who got to be a questionable, non-traditional, problematic... hero...?
Veilguard did Mythal dirty - but not necessarily in the way the OP complained about
There are four "instances" of Mythal in Veilguard:
The version in Solas' Regret Memories
The version in Morrigan
The version in the Crossroads
The version at the end of the game (which, to me, is separate)
Only the fragment in the Crossroads and at the end of the game are really Mythal - though still not THE Mythal from ancient times. She will never exist in that way again (if we go by what Solas tells us about spirits dying).
The other two instances are Morrigan, who's personality is slowly starting to "mix" with Mythal's, and Solas' memory of Mythal.
Now, what do we learn about Mythal from Solas' memories?
She emotionally manipulated/coerced him into a body even though he didn't want to manifest physically (if we're going biblical, this is a little like the Original Sin thing - Adam didn't want to, but Eve told him it's fine - an interesting parallel)
She OWNED HIM AS A SLAVE, even branding him
Once he had manifested, she didn't listen to the counsel she claimed she wanted from him (regarding the Dagger, for example)
She made him develop a weapon of mass destruction and made him participate in a genocide to win a war she (and Elgar'nan) started; and yes: MADE him. he very timidly expresses his concern: "it is a terrible thing we are doing" - they had this discussion multiple times, 100%, and she somehow convinced him when he didn't want to do it.
Then, she sided against him with the other Evanuris, knowing he would still and always remain loyal to her
In the "secret meeting" memory, she passive-aggressively chides him "I never turn my back when my friend needs me" (an outright lie; one: they are not friends, he was her SLAVE; two: she did ascend to quasi-godhood, siding against him and his counsel; three: Solas developed the dagger FOR her, and explicitly warned her against using it - she did it anyway;) - she behaves just like Flemythal behaves with Morrigan;
Plus (pure speculation from the way she talks in DA2 and DAI): She may have gotten herself killed to push Solas into containing the Evanuris; something she knew he'd only be able to do with sufficient "motivation" through anger and despair.
Was she done dirty here?
Not really. This characterization is pretty consistent with what we know of her from DAO, DA2, and DAI. She's abusive, opportunistic, manipulative, and ruthlessly pragmatic. She's also charming and sympathetic enough to make her victims (and onlookers) careless enough to trust her.
And these are SOLAS' memories of her. Meaning, this is probably the favorable version. Reality might have been way darker.
Is this unfair or sexist?
No. This is just Mythal's character as we know it from the previous games. Letting a female character be problematic (a slave owner, an abuser, a manipulator, etc.) is not sexist. She's still a nuanced, morally dark grey character (at least the way Solas views her). Yes, she did horrible things (and made him do horrible things), but she did so "for the right reasons" - which redeems her in Solas' eyes.
And since we know Dragon Age is all about unreliable narration (no matter how much Veilguard tries to buck that trend), we can extrapolate that just because Solas sees Mythal like this, it doesn't mean that she really did have "good reasons".
What we factually KNOW, is that she owned slaves and made herself a god-queen with absolute power, and that she committed a genocide (at least participated in one). There's no debate over any of this.
Again: That a female character is allowed to BE LIKE THAT without trying to soften her or bend the narrative so she's somehow justified - that's actually pretty progressive for the time.
Trying to retroactively retcon her into being a "gentle voice of reason" - THAT would be sexist.
AND GUESS WHAT VEILGUARD DOES.
The BIG thing in these memories is that Flemythal turns against Solas once again (in the last one):
This is the first point where Mythal's characterization wavers.
Because the writers need to villainize Solas - so they need to retroactively make Mythal a voice of reason she NEVER WAS.
Sure, she played the reasonable, pragmatic one - but she was just as power-hungry as the other Evanuris. What would she care for the Dalish or the city elves of today? Yes, the game tries to get out of this dilemma to make it seem like living in this world for so long "changed her", made her appreciate this new People. And maybe that works for some people.
But it's inconsistent with how we've seen her act in the last three games. She's benevolent and sympathetic - when it SUITS her. Could she potentially be softened? Could this fragment/this version of her be softened? I guess. But it doesn't FIT.
It reads to me like the writers just needed a reason for the protagonists to go "See! Even the good elven god was against him! HE was actually the bad guy all along!" - because, as we know, this is JE's Eternal Vengeance Quest(tm) against a video game character he doesn't understand.
How do we know this? This conversation did not happen originally, at the end of DAI. At the end of DAI, Mythal only says "I am sorry as well, old friend." Here, she acts as if she knows Solas' plan, she understands what he's going to do, and she lets him do it (because she just took precautions by sending her soul/essence/fragment to Morrigan, ensuring her survival). This conversation in Veilguard is retconning that moment.
And in the writers' attempt to make Solas into the villain he was never meant to be (maybe an antagonist, but not a villain), they accidentally sanded down Mythal into an incoherent, inconsistent mess.
And if there's anything Mythal lovers should be furious over, it is THAT.
We were robbed of another great character's moral complexity and nuance - and it's especially tragic in this case, because Mythal was SO GOOD the way she was. I appreciate the hell out of female characters like that. (Also: Carmilla from the Netflix Castlevania series; also a very disappointing ending;)
To be very clear, once again: The fact that Mythal was a morally dark grey character IS textual. This was not altered for the sake of Veilguard's Eternal Vengeance Quest(tm) against Solas. That she owned Solas as slave and abused Morrigan is in the text.
And Solavellans (generally) like and enjoy this part of her. Because it makes Solas a very interesting male character. The dynamic "female abuser, male victim" is still very rare. It opens the door for a variety of interesting headcanons and allows for so many levels of interpretation and identification. And, speaking from personal experience, writing a female abuser is something I find very cathartic.
Both characters exist in a sort of narrative symbiosis - they each get to break gender stereotypes, in a way, and they are also each others' character development for a good chunk for their characterization.
Until Veilguard says "nuh-uh!" and suddenly makes Mythal (actually) benevolent again (which would be an interesting lore discussion - can embodied, corrupted spirits "turn back"? - if Veilguard had any interest in something like that lol) and robs her of her core emotional drive (vengeance) that we experienced in DA2 and DAI. (Where tf IS her "reckoning that will shake the very heavens"?? Doesn't this line imply that she was in on and okay with Solas' plan??)
From this moment on, Mythal is just a McGuffin plot device to contrast and reign in Solas.
So, no, Mythal was not unfairly vilified in Veilguard "for a man's narrative development". It was actually the opposite: she was softened and pressed into a role that was never hers, to make her fit the new narrative role of her companion-character.
THAT'S the sexism at work here.
Essentially, Solas and Mythal swapped places in Veilguard. (From a bird's eye, "moral" perspective)
What do we learn about Mythal from Morrigan?
Morrigan talks about how she only has "an echo" of Mythal, and she remains "free-willed and mortal" - yet, Flemeth and Mythal did apparently "mix" at some point ("a blaze of magic that both was and was not my mother"; it stands to reason that this may eventually also happen to Morrigan;
The whole conversation is pretty shaky, lore-wise. For example, Rook/Morrigan agree that when Mythal (the original) died, she just left her body behind and became spirit again - which we know cannot be true, because of the many(?) fragments. She shattered.
Flemythal is further softened in this exchange, as Morrigan talks about how Flemythal regretted everything "as a mother"; and it was that emotional connection (that we never saw in the previous games, btw) that finally "guided" Morrigan to accept Mythal's... memories/spirit/fragment/whatever; charitably, if we want to stick with Flemythal's original characterization, it was emotional manipulation that Morrigan (who was still primed to seek her mother's approval, just like Solas was) couldn't withstand.
They also dunk on Solas a little bit. As a treat. *eyeroll*
Also, Solas is directly called Flemythal's murderer ("You may recall he murdered Mythal's former host to claim her godly might as his own.") - something we know is only partly true. (see the section on the regret memories). Another instance of actually "woobifying" Mythal, and not Solas. Mythal is made into a victim so that Solas can be the villain that JE demands he must be - and this conversation with Morrigan is another nail in the coffin.
Morrigan does say something very weird. When asked if she'd fight against Solas she says: "Even had I the power, what has passed between Solas and Mythal... I beg you: do not ask this of me again." And it's left very open to interpretation what she means by that. It's an extremely frustrating cop-out. WHAT, game? What happened between Solas and Mythal? Is this an admission of guilt from her/Mythal's side? Is this supposed to mean she'd be afraid to confront him (implying she'd scared he'd "kill her" "again")? I hate everything about this.
Even if Rook is charitable towards Solas (answers like "I pity him" or "he seems trapped"), Morrigan (and by extension Mythal) is (narratively) used to make Solas seem unhinged, silly, an unreliable narrator, stubborn, arrogant, and fanatical. Which - he IS some/all of these things. But here, these accusations are used to change his characterization from nuanced, morally grey antagonist to straight-up villain. With Mythal as the supposed (moral) authority she never was.
And then Morrigan offers us another fragment of Mythal that Solas extracted from the Dagger to "influence the outcome of battles yet to come". So. We're gonna go get "the voice of reason", Solas former slave owner, to talk him down. Got it. Amazing characterization, game.
This portrayal is even more unfair towards both characters than the regret memories. At least the memories still had textual confirmation of what Mythal/Flemythal actually WAS. She is only softened/turned at the end.
Here, Mythal is completely toothless. She only exists as a plot device, not even speaking for herself anymore.
But this is not Solas' "fault". It's also not our "fault" as Solavellans.
It's the writers' fault for a) writing themselves into a narrative corner, and b) using Solas' villainization to get out of that corner, butchering his characterization in the process, and, because the two are intrinsically narratively linked, also butchering Mythal. Making her a sanitized, goody-two-shoes version of herself, when she should have had her "reckoning that will shake the very heavens" (and Kate Mulgrew should have been her VA).
Nobody wanted this, except JE.
What do we learn from Mythal's fragment in the Crossroads?
She is closer to her original characterization: abrasive, cold, arrogant, glib; so far, so good?
No, because she has given up. Something we've seen about Mythal in all three previous games, is that she cannot be kept down. She would never content herself with just staying there, trapped. Yet, the way she is written here, she does. She has a chance fleeing the Crossroads and somehow clawing her way back into the world, or at least the Fade - but nope. She just wants to stay. Which seems uncharacteristic after her other fragment(s?) fought so hard to somehow live again.
Also, for SOME reason *eyeroll*, she is very critical of Solas; and not because she doesn't have a right to be - at the time of her death, she'd known him for millennia. But the way she speaks is more like her looking directly into the camera, at the player, saying "you can use me to shut Solas down, I'm okay with that".
"Fail, and I shall kill you for wasting my time" - really? Really, game? She's been trapped her for, again, millennia. With nothing but time. This is all shaky af. Again: Mythal, the way she has been characterized in the previous games (and even in Veilguard, in the regret memories!), would use this opportunity to strike a deal, a bargain, be owed a favor. (But we really needed a potential boss fight, so here we are...)
Interesting bit of in-universe historical revisionism: "We know the truth about the blight. We know it came from the imprisoned dreams of the Titans after you and Solas defeated them." - Defeated. As if it was a fair battle. As if it was a just cause. As if they didn't basically drop a nuke on an entire civilization. All to make Mythal retroactively seem more justified in everything. The narrative kind of... uncritically adapts her reasoning. Without leaving room for the fact that Solas was against this plan and warned her against it. And later, in banter with Harding, this deed is even suddenly FULLY attributed to Solas. Yay.
"You made the difficult choice to protect your home, because it was the right thing to do." - EXCUSE ME? This is now the point, where the game fully tries to twist Mythal into a Good Guy(tm). Yes, we could read this as "Well, Rook is only saying this to flatter her and convince her.", but let's be honest - not many people will read it that way, and it's not INTENDED to be read that way, either.
The game is trying to once and for all solidify the narrative that Mythal nobly sacrificed herself "to protect her home" - when, really, what she did was supremely stupid. Instead of joining Solas and listening to his advice for once, she was arrogant enough to think she had it in the bag. (OR, my new favorite: She did it on purpose to provoke Solas into drastic action; which makes more sense with her original character so I'm sticking to it;)
Mythal is generally very volatile and inconsistent here; one moment claiming "the world needs rulers, why should I help you topple them" and then sneering that Tevinter follows in the elven empire's footsteps, and how "they build nothing that does not serve them" - which is it, Mythal?
There is an overwhelming sense that this interaction only exists as an arbitrary challenge to the player. It's not really meant to tell us any lore, anything about Mythal or her character or her relationships with Solas and the other Evanuris. She's just a McGuffin and a stat-check. And they made her abrasive here, not because that's actually her character, not like in the older games, but to emotionally trigger the player into picking the wrong answers.
And I, personally, mourn this. While at the same time recognizing that this is, once again, not "Solas' fault". Rather, Someone(tm) decided to butcher Solas' characterization, not to "woobify" him, but to actually vilify him, and Mythal also needed to be changed. This did BOTH characters a heavy disservice.
Mythal at the end of the game:
I truly love this shot of them, because it really encompasses their relationship, AND it also mirrors their interaction at the end of DAI:
versus:
He comes to her, head down, shoulders drooping; When they embrace, he is lower than her (despite being taller); she grabs his neck, he does NOT grab for her - he just lays a hand on her armored hand; She is fully armored and wearing her crown, he's wearing soft, simple clothing; the hierarchy is CLEAR.
(Maybe I'll make a separate post about my speculation over what happened between DA2 and DAI, and what's happening here, specifically.)
Anyway, the way Solas reacts to Mythal is the same in both instances: deferment, demurring, obedience, fear.
Especially in Veilguard, probably due to the immense physical and emotional trauma he just experienced. And now, he is confronted with his former slave owner. Whom he loves. Against all better, rational knowledge.
A complete kick in the ribs while he's already flailing on the ground.
But questionable narrative implications aside, what's with Mythal?
Mythal (the writers) has the GALL to imply that "the many wrongs we did, we did together". And this is kind of where Mythal lovers and Solavellans will clash a little, I think.
Because, TO ME, it is exceedingly clear that Mythal manipulated, used, and abused Solas from the very beginning. (See regret memories and also her characterization in DAO, DA2, DAI) On the other hand, someone could argue "Well, that's only what SOLAS remembers, of course he'd make it seem like he had no choice.".
This is a conflict that can never be resolved. It's a difference in preferred interpretation, and we'll just have to agree to take our respective headcanon and run with it.
This, however, has nothing to do with the way Mythal is still sneakily The Good Guy(tm) here. SHE gets to "talk down the madman". Being forced back into the stereotypical, traditionally female role: The benevolent mother figure "putting her foot down". When this very fragment was just everything BUT benevolent towards the party.
And if she's only acting this way to talk Solas down? Even worse. Do these two characters not deserve some emotional relief, release, resolution in SOME way, after literally thousands of years?
But the only other thing she gets to say is "I release you from my service." - Again: EXCUSE ME, game? So he WAS actually compelled to do what he did? No matter how you dice it, it's all Mythal's responsibility. Even IF we allow for the option that Solas built the whole "I'm doing this for Mythal" in his own head - where tf did he get the IDEA? Maybe because he was OWNED by her for at least a few centuries? And probably still served her in some capacity after he burned off his slave brand? Maybe because she had his claws so deeply sunk into his very being that he didn't even notice the emotional manipulation?
THAT would be a fascinating dynamic to explore.
What does it mean to love someone who uses and abuses you?
Where does love end and abuse begin?
Do ends really justify the means? When (not)?
Free will - does it exist?
What is personhood?
And many other fascinating questions.
And everything in the previous games was absolutely primed for this.
These two characters could have been the ENTIRE 4th game. By themselves. (Do not misunderstand me, I'm not saying they SHOULD have been. I'm saying their dynamic and history would have been interesting enough to carry a whole game's worth of narrative, we didn't even need Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain.)
Anyway, this last instance of Mythal appearing is so upsetting because it says and does NOTHING, in the grand scheme of things. We can't even compare Flemythal and this fragment because they literally aren't the same person. I mean, obviously they aren't - but this is also not the same character, narratively. One is a fully realized, nuanced, morally dark grey character that's allowed to be problematic - and the other is a special item gained after a stat-check because JE wanted to kick Solavellans in the shin. And he used Mythal to do it.
That's why Mythal lovers should be angry.
Not because (some) Solavellans headcanon and write Mythal as the abusive slave owner she textually IS. (At least until Veilguard.)
In short, Veilguard tries to have it both ways: Solas' narrative of Mythal as "good" is suddenly dogmatically True - BUT his memories are apparently also Unreliable(tm) because "he cannot be trusted" (if we just call him a Lying Liar Who Lies often enough, it's gonna be true eventually - right?? /s).
If you really wanted to, you could make an argument that the fight between idolization and condemnation of Mythal happens within Solas' own mind:
He cannot accept that he was a victim for thousands of years and all he's done as a victim was because he was "too weak" to resist (goes against his pride; typical trauma reaction) an abusive Mythal, whom he ("stupidly") idolized;
But he also cannot accept that Mythal was completely good and never wrong - because that's factually untrue.
But that veers into headcanon and isn't worth very much when the game is hell-bent on simplifying these two extremely complex characters down to "Mythal good, Solas bad" even though it contradicts three whole other games' text. Most people will take what Veilguard offers (lowest common denominator) and run with it.
If you've made it this far, thank you for reading <3
I went into this post relatively angry, and the more I wrote, the more I realized that I had a lot in common with OP, and I was wrong to dismiss their post outright. I still think they got it backwards - Mythal isn't vilified to soften Solas, Solas is vilified to soften Mythal; or, better: Mythal's softening is used to vilify Solas. Still a misuse of her character, imo, but not quite the same.
to paraphrase jacob anderson, armand is what happens when someone goes through the most awful atrocities from a young age. armand is a result of his history. characters like lestat seem to receive a lot of grace for his actions because of his childhood making him who he is, which isn't a lie, but armand often isn't given the same treatment.
armand is a powerful ancient vampire, with abilities no other character in the show has, but is also the most desperate, co-dependent and emotionally weak. assad zaman captures this vibe perfectly. armands ultimate goal isn't some cartoon villains idea to "destroy the universe" or something similar, but to find love. not exactly the pure, healthy love that we imagine, but still he longs for companionship. we see him go to intense lengths to keep that companionship. because of the abuse armand has suffered, he attempts to recreate that dynamic he had with marius with his companions. for example the maitre/arun dynamic.
he is such an incredibly complex character which is often undermined by fans who want him to be this "black and white villain".
i dont think any of the original mcs in this show should be hated at all, the entire premise of the show is complex, diverse, and morally grey characters. and let's be real who wants to watch a show about vampires where they are all nice people and morally correct.
I've been thinking about how we, as fans relate to certain characters. And I realize that a lot of it is related to personality. Like, we really like characters that embody who we want to be, GENERALLY SPEAKING. But, it occurred to me, what about what drives them? Like wouldn't that factor be what really makes us similar to certain characters?
This makes me consider what drives each individual character. Or person. I'm going to do my thoughts on six of crows because I am in SO deep with this series:
Kaz Brekker: Love (and tearing down the system) I think that Kaz's motivation, on a very surface level, is revenge. But WHY is the boy so dedicated to avenging Jordie? Because he loved him, of course. I don't want to romanticize him too much, there's definitely a part of Kaz that did it out of greed, out of a need to prove himself as powerful and therefore turn the tables of the system. The disabled boy, life spit at him and yet he picks a love, Jordie, kruger, then Inej, all of these loves are what motivates him. Kaz is driven by his own stubborn love and his need to cause a bit of chaos in a system that hates underdogs.
Inej Ghafa: Freedom. I feel like Inej's is kinda self-explanitory? She craves freedom, almost to the point of flight. Even before her "debts" to the Menagerie or the Dregs, she wanted to be on the wire or the swings, an acrobat free to go wherever she pleased. Her nationality lends to this, being Suli she travels and is not tied to a single place. Inej just NEEDS freedom, which makes her imprisonment at the Menagerie, or by Van Eck so much awful-er. Kaz essentially holding the keys to her freedom is also such a significant power dynamic within their relationship. It definitely leaves a bit of resentment towards him, as he traded her cage for a leash. This is resolved by the end, but it is apparent at the beginning of SOC.
Nina Zenik: Duty To Her Love. When we're introduced to Nina, we understand that she's a soldier, but she's never been the best at following commands. She does, but not because of Ravka, because she cares about fellow people. She's bound by love, love for Grisha, love for the Crows, love for Matthias. Nina's driving power, the very basis of who she is, is rooted in love and care for others. She isn't as self-sacrificing as Matthias, but all her actions are rooted in her love for others. When she betrays Ravka for Matthias, she commits to a new love, and her duty is to save that love. If she love something, she does anything to protect it.
Matthias Helvar: Equality. All Is Fair In Love And War is a sentiment Matthais deeply disagrees with. The man follows the rules, whatever rules are established, either by the Drüskelle or by Nina, he doesnt believe love or war are permitted exclusion from fairness. Under it is the belief in others, this childlike faith that everyone value fairness as much as he does. Matthias's driving element is the equality, he strives to level the playing field. When he joins the Crows, Matthias learns that life isn't fair, but he understands the Crows are the underdogs, so he is willing to take others down to bring his crew up.
Jesper Fahey: Escape. Not to be a bummer, but I believe Jesper's main motivator is escape. Gambling = escapism. Flirting with no end goal = running from serious relationships. Leaving university = yet another escape. It shows through in all his actions, the boy's goal is to run away. What was it Matthais said? 'Angry and scared', was it? Jesper is a runner. His conversation with Wylan about his grisha power brings what he's being trying to escape to the surface. He tries to stop escaping them, to push against what he's been doing his whole life, but escaping is all he knows. Wily little man.
Wylan Van Eck: To Be Enough. If i were to simplify Wylan I would say respect, but he doesn't want respect because he's never even been allowed to be human. He cant want respect because he doesn't even exist. To ask for respect would be to skip a step in understanding his struggle. His main goal is close to being wanted or needed, but he's never been able to simply exist without being taken down. Wylan's time with the Crows not only allowed him to be enough, but opened the possibility of being respected or needed. Of all the Crows, I think Wylan was the closest to actually getting what he wants him at the end of CK.
A different topic to change things up! But with how *RARE* mates are… I wonder what really happened between Jesminda and Lucien to make him truly believe and share with others that he believed she was his mate. Does canon text ever say that he actually referred to her (or shared with her) in real time back when she was alive that he thought she was his mate?
How again do we as readers know that he thought she was his mate?
Maybe this is just a result of SJM’s early writing style - but I feel like it’s a little faux pas to call someone your mate before the bond snaps? I love Lucien. But I hope we get some flashbacks to give us an inkling of just why he felt this way… or maybe an explanation as to why… more than just a vague description of very deep love for each other.
In ACOTAR when Tamlin is telling Feyre about Lucien's past he said this:
"Lucien said he didn't care that she wasn't one of the High Fae, that he was certain the mating bond would snap into place soon and that he was going to marry her and leave his father's court to his scheming brothers."
While mating bonds are rare I imagine it would be pretty normal for a man to be so in love for the first time in his life, to have felt such love coming from another person for the first time in his life, that he imagines it has to be a magical connection.
The fact that mating bonds do exist paired with the strong emotions of falling in love for the first time paired with the fact that someone who hasn't had a bond doesn't know what it feels like therefore they can convince themselves "THIS must be the precursor to it snapping!" probably played a part into why he thought Jesminda was his mate.
I'm guessing that's why he was so shocked to find out Elain was his mate. Imagine that for centuries you knew the love and loss of the one who was meant to be your mate only to be smacked in the face with an actual bond.
The other side always says "poor Elain" but my guess is this was a situation that was even harder for Lucien to process in the moment, a situation that carried an onslaught of emotions that was completely paralyzing for him.
In our Jen-lover discord, we discuss many things about wmmap in general, especially pertaining to the writing of other characters and the monstrosity that is the mess of the novel (and how easily the writing could’ve been improved), and among them, Felix is one of the targets of discussion.
Despite being a prevalent supporting character throughout the entire story, in both the novel and manhwa, there is little to nothing really known or crafted about him. He’s like a loyal puppy, a bright and joyful uncle, yet he’s also strong enough to be the Emperor’s only knight and can be fierce supposedly, and has rumors of being a bloody weapon during the revolution (what this really means? No idea).
But what confuses me, and my discussion partners, is his behavior. Loyal, caring, sincere—those are his biggest hallmarks, and he shows this by showing his undying loyalty to Lee Jihye the entire novel, honestly acting more as a father than Claude at times. This behavior, fueled by his knowledge and affection over Lee Jihye, and also the love between Claude and Diana he is well aware of due to being by Claude’s side during that time.
Yet—he did nothing for LP Athy.
That made no sense. If he was aware of Claude and Diana’s great, soul searching love (eugh) for it to be the basis of his care and attention and loyalty to Lee Jihye, then why didn’t he spare a single fraction of this loyalty and care to LP Athy, despite his knowledge being the same in both worlds? After all, he is almost more loyal to Lee Jihye than Claude—constantly trying to remind Claude of his love for his daughter, delaying finding Athanasia for her protection, trying to sort out Claude’s intentions to guarantee Athanasia’s safety. Even LP Jennette, with her lesser knowledge and equally as naive faith in love between them, tries to help LP Athy and Claude somewhat in her own way. Yet why does he do nothing of the sort in regard to LP Athy?
A simple fix for this would be that his kindness, his loyalty—they are his strengths, as well as his flaws. A knight who is loyal to one is a pride—but what is a knight loyal to two? Torn. And can do nothing but be neutral. Isn’t that what LP Felix is? Neutral.
And it’s because of Penelope.
If his devotion to Lee Jihye is a result of witnessing Diana’s love story with Claude, as a result of remaining by Claude’s side—then it’s easily possible that he was just as loyal to Penelope for the same reasons, no? In fact, his loyalty to Penelope would be greater when you think about it—because in contrast to Diana, who was by Calude’s side for possibly six months (when you account for the quick whirlwind romance and months of Claude ignoring and neglecting Diana during her pregnancy), Felix practically grew up with Penelope. He was by Claude’s side constantly since childhood, and Penelope has been engaged to Claude since childhood as well—it’s only natural they’d interact whenever Penelope and Claude are to. Felix would’ve witnessed their love, their care, the beauty and comfort of their relationship before it suddenly crashed and burned.
Yet, I don’t think Felix knew the truth. I don’t think Claude ever told him that Penelope cheated—perhaps calling her a traitor, yet I don’t believe Claude divulged the details and Felix never asked in consideration of Claude’s fractured mental state. Why? It’s because Felix, in all worlds, treats Jennette kindly. If he, the loyal knight of the emperor, knew that Penelope cheated with the ex-emperor they killed, Jennette should’ve been someone he was most wary of—or just like Claude, who saw nothing in Jennette because of how he could easily crush her at any time. Yet—he is most kind to her. Even when he’s loyally by Lee Jihye’s side, assisting her in spying on Ijekiel and Jennette when they greet the Cabel, he’s awfully supportive of her friendship with Jennette. In the manhwa as well, he is the first to be jolly that Athanasia is making a friend in Jennette.
This is not the behavior of someone who sees the remnant of a political threat. Hell—of course Felix didn’t suspect infidelity. Not even Rosalia, Penelope’s SISTER, knew until she dug up old letters of Penelope YEARS later and Jen was already a coherent child by then. Felix would never ask Claude about it, and Claude would never tell him. No one could give Felix any answers, so he only has his assumptions to go by.
“He didn’t know she was Penelope’s daughter”, but how could he not? Claude canonically knows each and every time when he meets Jennette, that she is Penelope’s daughter. In the manhwa, in the novel, in LP—Claude is VERY aware of Jennette’s origins the moment he meets her. So why wouldn’t Felix—Felix, who grew up with and witnessed Penelope and Claude’s love for years. Felix may not have known about Penelope’s infidelity—but he knew of Claude and Penelope’s love. And Claude, despite calling Penelope a traitor and turning his heart cold—still keeps her portrait. Her only portrait. To Felix, it would seem like Claude still loved her somewhere deep within himself—just as he treated Diana harshly, but Felix still believed he loved Diana and Athy. So why wouldn’t Felix be equally as drawn to Jennette—when he shared the same affection for Penelope, and thinks that Claude still did too?
So just like Roger Alpheus, Felix assumes that Jennette is the fruit of Claude and Penelope’s love. My discussion partner said it best—“Lee Jihye assumed she was the child of a random fling at first, so why wouldn’t Felix?” That is why he is torn in LP, and why he does nothing for LP Athy yet does not hurt or rebuke her once—he is torn between two women Claude loved, and two women he himself cared for greatly. In consideration, it’s only natural he comes off as partial to LP Jennette weirdly—he knew Penelope longer. Just as he’s biased towards Lee Jihye due to partially raising Lee Jihye in the novel, LP Felix, who didn’t witness either of the girls’ childhoods, his bias is based on his closeness with their mothers. Felix himself is likely a bastard, so he maybe even saw the difference in treatment between LP Jen and LP Athy as natural (in my discussion partner’s own words comically, “Sometimes you’re a knight and your brother gets the dukedom—I mean you live in the Ruby Palace and your sister lives in the Emerald Palace as the heir”). Just like Claude, Jennette and Athanasia are just proxies of their mothers. His loyalty, his kindness—split in two. The only deciding factor—Claude himself, and he makes his choices clear each time.
On a more selfish level, you can even pry deeper. He projects himself and Claude onto the girls, that Claude-Jennette is the higher in status who in their kindness is the only hand of protection in the palace who Felix-Athy must quietly serve and devote themselves to, accepting their place in life. So when Athy supposedly poisons Jennette, the fantasy shatters because he could never hurt Claude the way Athanasia supposedly attempted to kill Jennette—so instead of seeing himself in Athanasia, he sees Anastasius. That is why he does nothing when Athanasia gets executed.
This would give Felix just an easy, added depth. And would give his strange, unexplained loyalty and neutrality, his sometimes unfounded and unearned affection and bias, some sort of reason. Felix is a very selfish man within his selflessness, as his cowardly care and attention is as conditional as Claude’s. In his neutral ‘kindness’ is he cruel. Like master, like servant.
By now, I’ve shared nearly everything there is to share about these two (at least up until the current point in time). But there’s one important part of their story that’s been left out, and that’s the first time each of them said “I love you” to the other.
I’d like to remedy that today, so proceed below the cut if you’d like to join me on this little journey…
[cw for mild nudity in the first photo below]
This. This was the moment Ash realized he'd fallen in love.
This was the first night they spent together after becoming official... the night Atlas paced in front of his door before finally gaining the courage to knock, the courage to open his heart and let Ash in.
Of course, we know that Atlas already knew he loved Ash when he showed up at his door. At one point, he thought to himself:
And who knows, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s a chance he could love me the way that I love him.
But it wasn't until a few hours later, lying naked in the dark, enjoying their post-coital bliss and staring into each other's eyes, that it really hit Ash just how hard he'd fallen. At the time, we didn't get any insight into his thoughts because the story is told from Atlas' POV, but here's a little glimpse:
I’ve been in love before. But never like this. The way I look back on my life now, and all I can see is how every single decision I’ve ever made has led me here, led me to him. Every one of those decisions, no matter how small or silly or stupid or wrong they seemed at the time, are now more precious to me than the air I breathe.
Yeah, Ash is a bit intense! And he knows it too. So, he didn't say anything. Neither of them did.
Well... that's not entirely true.
Ash was so overwhelmed, he actually felt like he would burst if he didn't say it out loud. So, he waited for Atlas to fall asleep, and then he whispered the words to him in the dark.
He carried on this way for about two months... telling Atlas he loved him while watching him sleep.
But eventually, it started to feel like a secret he was keeping, and that ate at him.
He knew he needed to tell him for real. But he also knew there was a chance Atlas wouldn’t be ready to say it back yet, and he needed to prepare himself for that scenario even though deep down he hoped Atlas was just waiting for him to say it first. That once he said it, he would say it right back and they’d sail through this milestone in their relationship easily. But nothing with Atlas had ever been that easy, had it?
One night while watching a movie together, Atlas was lying with his head in Ash’s lap while Ash ran his fingers through his hair, and something about the moment, so peaceful and tender, just felt right. So, Ash took a breath and said softly, “I love you.”
Just as he feared, Atlas looked like a deer in the headlights, stumbling and stuttering as he tried to find a way to respond, to explain without hurting his feelings. Luckily, Ash was prepared, he’d already decided how he wanted to respond if he reacted this way. So, just before Atlas’s anxiety rose to all-out panic, Ash shoved his feelings of disappointment aside and placed a comforting hand on the side of his face and told him, “It’s okay, you don’t have to say anything. I don’t want you to until you’re ready.”
What Ash hadn’t prepared for was the waiting.
He wasn’t sure whether to keep saying it in the hopes Atlas would one day say it back, or if that was putting too much pressure on him and he should drop it, leave the ball in Atlas’s court, wait for him to say it when he’s ready. But how long would he be left hanging?
When another two months passed, Ash felt discouraged and hurt.
There were moments, like the one above, the morning before Atlas left for his climb up Mt. Komorebi, when Ash was sure he was about to say it, but he’d say something else instead. The disappointment was more gutting every time.
He wondered what was stopping him. Was it that he wasn’t sure about how he felt? Or was it the words themselves? Maybe they could come up with a unique word or phrase, something all their own. That could be quite sweet. Maybe even more meaningful.
He didn’t want to cause any additional pressure or stress right before Atlas left for such a dangerous excursion, so he decided to wait until he returned to talk to him about it.
So, what was preventing Atlas from saying it back?
He certainly did love Ash, and he wasn’t blind to the hurt his silence caused.
The answer is found here.
Henry was the first person that Atlas ever allowed himself to open up to and be vulnerable with. And it was that vulnerability that allowed their relationship to go from platonic to romantic.
When Atlas said “I love you” to Henry, it was not only the first time he’d said it in a romantic sense, but it was the first time he’d ever said the words to anyone. And while Henry did say it back in the moment, it was only a matter of days before he took it back and broke Atlas’ heart. Thus, confirming his already deep-seated belief that love is conditional, that he is not worthy of it, and that he is destined to be alone.
Given all of this, it’s no surprise that he struggled not only to give a relationship with Asher a chance, but saying “I love you” opened up the possibility that it would all be taken away again. Anytime he felt himself wanting to say the words, fear would take hold, and he couldn’t do it. So, what changed?
That moment on the mountain when he nearly lost his sister, everything changed.
At the beginning of The Past arc, when Atlas wakes up from his nightmare for the first time, one of the things he mentions is that he’s unable to cry:
I’ve always wondered if this is a normal thing, if it’s something everyone experiences, or if it’s connected to my inability to cry under any other circumstances. Something that was trained out of me from such a young age that I’m not sure if my body even remembers how.
When Dawn fell, it was the most terrifying moment of his entire life. Anything else he’d ever been afraid of paled in comparison.
When Phoenix caught her, and he realized she was okay, he collapsed and sobbed. It was the first time he’d cried since he was little. I can only imagine how cathartic it must have been.
The experience also made him face his own mortality and realize how quickly it can all be taken away. He was suddenly filled with a need to tell Asher how he felt. He couldn’t bear the idea of something happening to either of them before he ever had the courage to tell him how he felt. Now, he was far more afraid of not saying “I love you” than he ever had been to say it.
The first thing he does when he arrives home is call Ash, who immediately rushes over. He barely has time to say hello before Atlas embraces him and says, “I love you! I love you so much! I’m sorry…”
Between the emotion of the moment, the exhaustion of the climb, and the weight of everything he’d been through over the last week, he broke down again. Which I’m sure sufficiently freaked Ash out. But true to his nature, he spent the night comforting and reassuring him.
This was a turning point in their relationship. After this, they were both more committed to each other than ever, and I’m glad I finally got to share it!
Thank you so much to anyone who made it through all that... I know it was a lot (as usual) 😅
I’m going to leave you with the first time the boys are actually seen saying “I love you” to each other in my story… which takes place just over a year later in story time:
