The only exception is Aang, whose whole “I’m not gonna kill him if i can find another way” thing is less false moral equivalency and more “I’m twelve and I have been through way too much bullshit this year to add ‘commit my first murder’ to the list.”
I do respect superheroes who don’t kill, and I really think “we’re as bad as they are if we do it” is a terrible oversimplification of why someone would come to that moral conclusion.
Three reasons why a hero might not kill:
1. They are not granted by their society a “licence to kill.” Many (not all) people accept that a soldier or a judge might need to kill a wrongdoer in the course of their duties. Those people (should) act under strict rules and processes to determine when a death is just. A society, to be peaceful, usually functions under a guarantee that people won’t on their own judgement decide to off people. Vigilantes don’t usually have state-sanctioned authority, but they do rely on public goodwill to be counted as heroes and not menaces or even villains. A hero, especially an independent, self-proclaimed one, may lack the authority or judgement to serve as executioner. Most just societies require a trial before delivering a sentence.
2. They don’t need to. Paradoxically, or maybe not so much so, the stronger a hero is, the less they need to kill. One of the most common defenses for a murder is “self defense,” the idea that the person making the plea was in so much danger from the deceased that killing them was justifiable. But once you’re a swordsman swift enough to cut bullets or a muscleman strong enough to lift trucks, who’s that big a threat? As your control over your power and your ability to master an opponent both increase (and barring completely wild or uncontrolled abilities, these two are very linked) the easier it becomes to hold back, to subdue with the minimal amount of damage and to render even the worst villains neutralized without going nuclear.
3. The power to kill is bad for their mental health. Not everyone can perform even a “just” killing with a clean conscience. A hero might fear the trauma of killing, and seek to avoid the damage. Or a hero might introspect, and realize that, should they kill today, tomorrow the choice will be easier. Killing an opponent, rather than subduing them, is often the easy way out, and a hero who comes to rely on that solution might find themselves killing more and more, Even if killing isn’t addictive, a hero might still fear that mindset.
Now, a common version of this problem is Batman, who wouldn’t kill the Joker even if the Joker is at maximum edge, dealing out huge terrorist acts and body counts. The best reason for Batman not to kill him isn’t “I am as bad as the Joker if I kill,” but more, “I am a man who uses superheroism as a trauma coping mechanism, and if I start committing extrajudicial killings my mental state and my loose alliance with the police will both deteriorate.”
A while ago, I posted about Prodigal, the DICK-and-TIM Batman run and one of my favorite comic storylines of all time, and I learned from comments that it's pretty hard to track down for new readers - the comics are collected together on Kindle and Comixology, but not on DCU Infinite, and of course it's spread out over a bunch of different comics.
So I have made a list! A really long list!
If you, too, would like to read about
Dick having a self-worth crisis! Tim being excited about their teamwork!
Tim being amazed by basic household tasks! Tim apparently eating and hanging out in the Manor half the time, except when his dad periodically remembers he exists and demands company!
Jack Drake being a terrible parent! Dick worrying about Tim's bruises!
Tim being a nosy busybody and Dick reluctantly confiding at first and then actually unburdening himself!
Dick and Tim all on their own (no Alfred! no Bruce! just an inexperienced Batman and an inexperienced Robin!)
Dick's journey from "this kid is impressive but sometimes annoying" -> "I will punch anyone who looks at him crosswise"!
Tim’s journey from “desperate to impress” -> “actually admitting to insecurities”!
Please enjoy this:
Big Long List of Comics
WELCOME. This is in three parts. I warned you it was long!
The first part is if you want to read the lead-up to Prodigal - I picked out what I think are some of the key highlights / context in the post-Crisis Batfamily before the storyline starts.
The second part is Prodigal itself. So if you're just interested in Prodigal, scroll down to that.
The third part is just me gushing about why Prodigal is a great Dick Grayson story (plus a great Dick and Tim story), plus a caveat.
Part I. Fun but totally optional background reading (the lead-up to Prodigal):
Batman 408, Batman 416, and New Titans 55: These three comics will give you a quick snapshot of what's been going on with Dick and Bruce before Tim shows up. Batman 408 is the comic that rebooted the Batfamily into their angsty post-Crisis form: i.e. Dick was fired instead of quitting, and he and Bruce are estranged instead of in touch; Jason is a street kid instead of an acrobat; Dick and Jason are no longer close; etc. Dick meets Jason in Batman 416 and is horrified to find out about his death in New Titans 55. It's all really dark, but it's useful context and also you can cry about Dick, who's having a miserable time. ;_;
Batman 436-439: Prequel to Lonely Place of Dying. Bruce is a self-destructive disaster, and Dick doesn't know what to do. Lots of flashbacks to Dick's origin story and his childhood with Bruce.
Lonely Place of Dying: Tim's origin story. Dick and Tim met at the circus before Tim's parents died, and Dick promised him a somersault; Tim remembered forever and recognized him as Robin from it. Tim asks Dick for help - Batman needs you! Dick refuses to go back to Robin, but talks Bruce into making Tim Robin. Bruce insists on extensive training first, though.
New Titans 65: Dick and Tim's 2nd meeting (Tim's not yet Robin). Tim comes to NYC to ask for training; Dick takes him to Central Park.
Batman 455, Batman 480 and Robin III 4: These three comics will give you a quick snapshot of Tim's family life. His mom is murdered and his dad's in a coma in Batman 455 (shortly before Bruce makes him Robin); Jack recovers from his coma in Batman 480 and Tim writes him an angsty letter about his never being around (then burns it). In Robin III 4, Tim's got mysterious bruises and Jack threatens to send him to boarding school in Metropolis for the first (but not last) time.
Batman 498: Bruce's back is broken. Tim suggests they ask Dick to replace him as Batman. Bruce says, no, Dick's his own man. He picks Azrael instead. This is a mistake.
New Titans 101 and The Flash 81-3: Meanwhile, Dick's spiraling as his life goes from bad to worse. IMO these issues are good for a short look at why he's so unhappy. Short version: he gets fired from the Titans, Kory breaks up with him, and he's convinced he's a failure in every way. (Canon doesn't care, but for fanfic purposes, it's useful to remember that this is also shortly after the infamous Mirage plotline.)
Batman 508 or Robin 1: Back in Gotham, Tim is having a terrible time with Azrael-as-Batman: Azbats is increasingly violent, and Tim gets strangled and banished from the Cave. No need to read both comics; either one will give you the general idea.
Robin 10 Zero Hour: This comic will never be referred to again (SADLY) but I love it. Time-displaced Robin!Dick meets Robin!Tim and they team up.
Showcase ’93 11-12: Frustrated with Azrael, Tim heads to NYC for the 3rd time to ask Dick for help. Dick’s moody and depressed and does NOT feel like company, but he’s been asked for help, so he comes. Tim thinks Dick is awesome and way better than Azbats. If only Dick were Batman. Meanwhile, Dick is unnerved to discover that Tim thinks Dick is an adult.
Batman Shadow of the Bat 29 and Detective Comics 676 (Knightsend 2-3): Knightsend is a long plotline, but this gives you a quick look at the conflict between Dick and Bruce. Bruce asks Dick to come help defeat Azrael (who's become a problem). Dick comes, but he makes clear to Bruce that he's hurt and offended that Bruce asked Azrael to be Batman instead of Dick.
Part II. Prodigal itself (hurrah!):
Robin (Volume 2) #0: It sometimes gets left off reading lists, but this comic is great! It's a short prologue to Prodigal. Shortly after defeating Azbats, Dick and Tim head out as Nightwing and Robin, and nosy Tim keeps asking questions. Dick ends up confiding in him about a miserable childhood encounter with Two-Face. (This will be important later on.) When they get back to the Cave, Bruce asks Dick to be Batman.
Batman #512: Dick cooks, and Tim's very impressed. Later, Dick & Tim fight Killer Croc. It doesn't go well. Dick's horrified. He can't do this!
Batman: Shadow of the Bat #32: Sweeping, swinging, and watching criminals through binoculars. Dick's still having a crisis about not being worthy to be Batman. Tim still thinks he's great.
Detective Comics #679: Jack Drake suddenly wants to spend time with Tim.
Robin (Volume 2) #11: Two-Face is loose. Dick's convinced he's going to fail to catch Two-Face...and thus fail Gotham. Tim tries to reassure him.
Batman #513: Dick admits some of his anxieties to Tim, and then they both drink orange juice straight from the cartons, because that is a thing that they do. Also, Dick does laundry.
Batman: Shadow of the Bat #33: Tim's scared of heights, and Dick reassures him.
Detective Comics #680: Tim gets captured by Two-Face! Dick has to redo his traumatic childhood adventure. Last time, he failed...and if he fails this time, Tim will die!
Robin (Volume 2) #12: Jack Drake gets interested in his attractive physical therapist, and promptly loses interest in Tim. Tim: "He didn't even notice my bruises." Dick noticed, though. Also, they fold clothes.
Batman #514: Dick tracks down some criminals on his own.
Batman: Shadow of the Bat #34: No Tim :( Dick fights a criminal who thinks he's Azbats.
Detective Comics #681: Dick thinks that Azrael is up to something. Tim disagrees. Tim argues that he's not a sidekick - they're equal partners - so maybe they should pursue their hunches independently. Dick agrees. They make a bet on who will get the right answer.
Robin (Volume 2) #13: Bruce comes home. Dick and Bruce have a long talk and reconcile.
Part III. Why Prodigal is a great Dick Grayson story (and also a great Dick & Tim story)
Dick is the protagonist of Prodigal, and he gets a really compelling story arc.
It's Dick's first time ever being Batman, and unlike his run with Damian, he's a lot younger and more uncertain here. He's been estranged from Bruce, he's been fired from the Titans, Kory broke up with him...and now he's Batman (?!). Tim thinks he's great and way better than Azrael-as-Batman, but Dick starts out without a lot of faith in himself. He's the titular "prodigal son," who's come home to Gotham feeling like he failed in New York, and he's both desperate to prove himself and not sure that he can.
And when Tim's captured by Two-Face, Dick has to re-confront a childhood nightmare... and he can't fail this time, or Tim will die.
(Spoiler: he doesn't fail. xD)
There's also plenty to love here if you like Dick, Tim, and Batfamily feels!
Prodigal is the first big storyline starring Dick and Tim and it did a lot to establish their dynamic. Other writers tweak it over time, but a few common threads:
Tim sometimes gets in trouble in the field and needs saving; when that happens, Dick's intensely protective.
Though Tim's not as good as Dick in a fight, he is an excellent detective. Dick learns to trust his judgment and his hunches.
Dick finds food for Tim, they have fun together, and Dick teases Tim a lot. (In Prodigal this is still pretty tentative - Dick gets more casual about teasing over time.)
Tim opens up to Dick about his anxieties... and though Dick's more reluctant to confide at first, he does the same.
Tim has a worried inner monologue analyzing what's wrong with Dick and trying to figure out how to help - for the first time, but not the last.
Dick saves Tim from falling - for the first time, but not the last.
It's great <3
(This is also an important Dick storyline from a Doylist perspective: previously, he'd only been in team books, and Prodigal is the transitional story on his way to starring in his first solo comic.)
Caveat...
That said, obligatory caveat: these comics are over 25 years old! Prepare for casual sexism etc. Also, this is post-Crisis canon, where relationships are rocky and characters are flawed. Bruce is often self-destructive and a Bad Dad; Dick and Tim are kinda critical of Jason; Dick's fighting with his friends; etc. Prodigal itself isn't especially dark (Dick and Tim get close, Dick and Bruce reconcile at the end), but it's building on bleak backstory, so if you don't like that tone, skip the backstory and go straight to Prodigal.
I enjoy old comics because of the way I read - I'm happy to keep the stuff I like and ignore the stuff I don't like, and nowadays I mostly read to get ideas for fanfic anyway. xD But the style is not for everybody, so be advised!
If you start it and don't care for it, but still want to read a good Dick and Tim story, I'd recommend Gotham Knights 8-11 - a short, great Dick and Tim story that's still in post-Crisis but was written five years later and feels less dated. You also have the option of reading my essentially-a-novelization-of-early-90s-comics fanfic, which is both unfinished and of varying quality, but, y'know, I like it, and it will definitely update sometime this decade. xD
Final pitch
If you're cool with comics from the 90s, Prodigal is good drama, good fun and a great Dick and Tim story! It has entertaining character dynamics, consistent continuity, and a bunch of interesting ideas that call to be elaborated on (Tim canonically has recurring nightmares about the Graysons' deaths and is canonically nervous about heights - coincidence?).
It also has a disastrous fight against Killer Croc, a high-stakes battle with Two-Face, household chores, and a subway rocket.
In conclusion, I really love these two idiots. xD Hope you enjoy as much as I do!
So I recently got back into the batman fandom after being gone for like 15 years (I mostly just watched the cartoons as a kid & looked through the occasional comic. I had no clue who Cass or Duke were & only knew Damian because he was in BatBro art I sometimes saw), & I am fully aware that the fanfic/fandom of the batfam is very inaccurate to the actually comics in both good and bad ways & I was curious if you had any recs for good dc comic series for a newbie wanting to get back in to them?
OOOOOHHH I do have recs. I'm a firm believer that canon is good actually and I think the Batfandom should read more comic books. So thanks to you dear anon, i did make
The ULTIMATE (probably not actually) BATFAM CANON REC LIST
These are going to be CANON comic books and runs that I totally think y’all should read if you want a grasp on how the Bat characters actually are as opposed to their fanon personalities. They are also -imo- the really good ones. This got long so check out the "read more" if you're curious
Starting with runs/specific books:
Bruce Wayne:
Batman: EGO - one of my favs
Batman: Bruce Wayne Murderer?
Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?
Batman: Hush
Batman: As the Crows Fly
New 52 Batman (2011) - overall pretty solid run with only a few lows; best arcs: Court of Owls, Zero Year, Endgame
Detective Comics - general run
Batman (1940) - general run
Damian Wayne:
Batman and Son - origin
Batman and Robin (2009)
New 52 Batman and Robin (2013) - general run
Robin: Son of Batman (2015)
Super Sons - just anything with that in the title tbh
Robin (2021) - ongoing
DCeased: Hope at Earth's end - elseworld
Dick Grayson:
Robin: Year One
Nightwing: Year One
Batman: Prodigal (1994) - Dick Grayson as Batman v1
The New Teen Titans (1980)
Nightwing (1996) - general run; avoid issues by Devin Grayson
Cassandra Cain:
Batman: No Man’s Land - origin
Batgirl (2000) - general run; near flawless
Batman: Bruce Wayne Murderer? - her tie in is really good
Detective Comics (2016) - general run
Shadow of the Batgirl - good art, better story
Batman: Gates of Gotham - good for dami and tim fans too
*Avoid everything Cass related after One Year Later; they do her dirty
Tim Drake:
Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying - origin
Robin I, II, & III - miniseries
Robin (1993) - general run; avoid OYL arc; gets ooc during FabNic run
Young Justice (1998) - general run; greatest comic series EVER
Teen Titans (2003) - general run; a lot of post oyl sucks but it’s got it’s moments
Red Robin (2009) - ooc, don’t read until AFTER most of the other stuff
Stephanie Brown:
Detective Comics #647-#649 - origin
Robin (1993) - general run
Batgirl (2000) - general run
Robin/Spoiler Special (2008)
Batgirl (2009)
Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Batgirl Tie in is really good
Jason Todd:
Batman: A Death in the Family
Batman: Under the Hood
Red Hood: Lost Days
Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth (#1-20) - series is bad but these first few issues were alright
Future State: Gotham - ongoing
Batman: Urban Legends (#1-6) - ongoing
Duke Thomas:
Batman (2011) - #30-50 + annual#3
We are Robin
Robin War
Batman and the Signal
Batman (2016) - first couple of arcs
Batman and the Outsiders (2019)
Future State: Outsiders - backup in Future State: The Next Batman
Barbara Gordon:
Birds of Prey (1999)
Batgirl: Year One
Oracle: Year One
Batman: The Black Mirror
*I don’t really read much of Babs so you’ll have to find a different source for her
Fam in General:
Batman: Gotham Knights (2000) - Devin Grayson is a horrible person but the run is very good … the conflict…
Batman: Urban Legends - ongoing
Detective Comics (2016) - ongoing; it’s got its ups and downs
Truth and Justice (2019?) - ongoing
* full on Fam books are hard to find solo and one on one team ups are better
I tried to put stuff that I personally enjoyed, but every run has its flaws so not everything is the most amazing, but I tried to keep the lists to only include things that are true to the characters. I cut out most of the New 52 because it’s really(really) bad. I will mention that some of the current runs in the Infinite Frontier are very good and if you don’t want to read a bunch of old comics pick up the stuff starting in March 2021.
**shout out to @the-cult-of-aqualad for helping me with the list
**If anyone wants to add anything, put it in the replies!
Steph spent over a decade as a supporting character, which means until she finally got her Batgirl run, her appearances are scattered across various bat-books, and hard to track (let alone order) if you don’t know where to start. Which is what I’m here for!
This will run through a basic explanation of Steph’s entire timeline up to Flashpoint, including every appearance in chronological order. (Well, minus some pointless cameos where she appears for a single panel/line.) If you’re just reading for Steph, there are many issues listed where you could just skim through the non-Steph portions.
For the very abbreviated version:
Steph first appears in Detective Comics vol 1 #647-649 as the Spoiler, working against her dad.
She returns and becomes a regular supporting character in Robin vol 2 (1993), which includes getting together with Tim, and going through a teen pregnancy.
Steph starts to appear more across other Batfamily books, particularly Batgirl vol 1 (2000) (while still being a regular in Robin).
For a short time, she is welcomed into the inner circle and trained directly by Batman, before being rejected again.
After Tim is forced to quit, Steph becomes Robin briefly.
Shortly after being fired, she is killed.
Steph returns with a very brief explanation, and floats around as a Robin supporting character again.
Finally, she becomes Batgirl and gets her own run in Batgirl vol 3 (2009), which lasts until the reboot.
Full timeline and issue listings below the cut! I’ve tried to make it possible to just grab the listed issues, ignore any (lower-case s) spoilers, and get a fresh read for yourself OR to read in full for a thorough timeline.
Hey I’m so sorry if this is too tall of an ask (feel free to ignore it) but now that Tim has been confirmed bi I was thinking of getting back into dc a bit and wondered if you had Tim recommendations (as well as any other general recs)? I am also super sorry if this has been asked before. Anyway, I also wanted to say I love your art and hope you have a nice day! <3
hi. got a lot of similar asks but you're the lucky one that got answered
Tim Drake reading order bc EVERYONE’S been asking me holy cow
**In chronological order, with notes for where things generally fall in the timeline. More specific than the "ULTIMATE Canon Batfam Comic Rec List." **
Pre-Robin
Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying - origin
Detective Comics (1937) - pre Robin, editorial angst mandate
Batman (1940) #455-#457 - pre Robin/ first solo mission
Early Robin/Pre-Ongoing
Robin I (1991) - first miniseries. Training era
Robin II (1991) - second miniseries. Tim vs the Joker
Robin III (1992) - third miniseries. Team up with Huntress
Batman Knightfall - Tim + AzBat Dynamic Duo *only the first part*
Batman: Prodigal - Tim + DickBat Dynamic Duo
Beginning of Ongoing to OYL
Robin (1993) #1-60 - beginning of solo - NML
Nightwing (1996) #25 - very fun team up with Dick Grayson
Robin (1993) #61-100 - NML to end of YJ
Young Justice (1998) - team book starring Superboy, Impulse, Wonder Girl, and others. Floating around the timeline. Highly recommend
Robin #101-125 - Post yj - War Games
Young Justice: Graduation Day - YJ breaks up
Batman War Games - really bad just skip. Editorial angst mandate
DC Identity Crisis - miniseries starring various DC characters having a bad time. Editorial angst mandate
Robin #136-137 + Batgirl #58-59 - team up with Cass Cain Batgirl post War Game/Identity crisis
Teen Titans (2003) #1-35 - New Titans run starring the old YJ roster. Up to Infinite Crisis, generally falls in line with the rest of the books.
Robin #139-148 - post War Games to Infinite Crisis
One Year Later - End of Robin
Robin #149-156 - One Year Later for Robin. Evil Cass arc be warned! Also a good arc that follows
Teen Titans #35-idk - One Year Later for the Titans. Clone saga. Not my favorite stuff
Batman: Face the Face - One Year Later for Batman. Adoption time baby!
Robin #158-#183 - OYL to end of Robin solo
Batman: Batman and Son - Damian enters.
Batman: The Resurrection of Ra’s Al Ghul - just read it. Tim’s pretty unhinged
Batman: RIP - around Bruce's “death” hard to gauge timeline
Post-Robin/Red Robin
Batman: Battle for the Cowl - post Bruce's Death
Red Robin (2009) #1-9 - BruceQuest to the return to Gotham
Batgirl (2009) #8 - Crossover with Steph Brown Batgirl
Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Bruce returns
Batman: Gates of Gotham - standalone story, also ft Cass and Damian.
Red Robin #10-26 - Collision to end of solo
Teen Titans (2003) #92 - rejoining the Titans
New 52
Don’t bother
Rebirth
Detective Comics (2016) #943-940 - rebirth. Fake out death
Detective Comics (2016) #968-981- comes back from comic limbo!
Young Justice (2019) - not very good but eh…
Infinite Frontier
Batman: Urban Legends #4-6 + #10-? - hot topic right now. Coming out time!
**That’s all of it! The ones that really matter anyways
I think it's so funny seeing so many comments of people saying that the new webtoon is worse than canon and that the webtoon is "destroying the batfamily."
People who would totally kill the Joker given the opportunity:
Poison Ivy
Half of the rest of the Arkham inmates
Alfred Pennyworth
Diana of Themyscira
Artemis of Bana-Mighdall
Roy Harper
Commissioner Gordon
75% of the population of Gotham
And look, I’m not including Jason on this particular list because he shouldn’t have to kill the guys who murdered him himself, and PTSD might make that difficult. Who knows.
The point is that there’s plenty of people. Gotham’s full of crime, right? I’m sure there’s plenty of guns floating around. Plenty of people with motive. Plenty of people with skill even.
So true and also it’s so funny because now there’s a new vigilante called Clownhunter that wants to kill the Joker
His design is cool and he looks adorable here but, anyway, there’s so many people that hate the Joker and it’s so weird that he’s still alive when basically most of Gotham hates him
And I like this new character, I really do, but why would DC create this character and then NOT kill the Joker? I find it kind of weird that they haven’t done it yet in a cool way that can really impact these characters and Gotham city in general but they’re not because “Joker makes money” I guess? The Joker will never change and he’ll always be terrible so why not kill the Joker and focus on the WAY cooler members of the rogue’s gallery (and make more maybe)? The Joker is literally a normal human and he outlived most characters lmao
Talia after remembering everything she knows about Barbara Gordon and two minutes of talking to Harley Quinn: Bruce is a little bitch, Jason. Go find me a rusty knife.
Okay so I have many mixed feelings on all of this. For Gotham I want it to be a big gang up thing like that. A collective push back against the Joker and all the terror he’s brought. For Jason, Barbara, Harley, etc., I want one of them or someone who cares about them to do it.
For the Joker though? I want it to be some rando who does it on accident and then no one notices for a week.
i love when anyone calls superman ‘supes.’ like yeah! he has soup energy. he’s warm. wholesome. nourishing. culturally important to jewish people. when you throw him at a cop he’s worse than a brick because he’s got force
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