the op linked the study in the replies & i’ve been skimming it & it’s actually rlly rlly interesting to think abt
https://e1.nmcdn.io/assets/pushkin/wp-content/uploads/imported-files/Wait-theres-torture-in-Zootopia_-Examining-the-prevalence-of-torture-in-popular-movies.pdf
like this sentence from the introduction alone is fucking crazy. “approximately half of adults in the united states think that torture can be acceptable in counterterrorism.” what!
we need a cultural revolution in america.
not to make this important post about my brain worms but this paper actually discusses captain america: the winter soldier at some length
in the appendix (which you can find by scrolling down) CA:TWS is listed as having one torture scene, which immediately made me wonder because there are two that I can think of.
further on in the appendix when the authors are discussing the criteria for including torture, they give the vault scene in CA:TWS as an example of a scene that isn't torture, with the justification that Bucky seems to comply with his captors, and given the information shown on screen we can't conclude whether or not Bucky is a willing participant in the "wipe." Willing participants cannot be tortured, therefore the vault scene is not counted as torture
That is a WILD take on that scene. "doesn't fight back" does not equal "not being tortured" come on now
now, I could see disqualifying the vault scene as being a torture scene on the basis that the purpose of the "wipe" is not to inflict pain, it just happens to be an extremely painful process.
That's an interesting take. Is doing something incredibly painful or distressing to a person torture when there is ostensibly a secondary purpose to the painful thing, even though it also clearly doubles as a way of inflicting suffering and asserting power? This is a really important question to answer, since a lot of instances of torture and mistreatment in prisons and military situations etc. seem to fall under this. e.g. a strip search is nominally for "security" purposes, but it is also forced nudity which is a common form of sexual violence inflicted as part of torture.
But disqualifying the scene because there is not enough evidence that Bucky is being coerced to do it is nuts, since immediately prior Bucky gets slapped in the face for not answering a question and doesn't retaliate, and immediately before that Bucky gets a bunch of guns pointed at him when he acts up
That's another important question. Does being forced to comply with or participate in your own torture disqualify it from being torture?
The answer is, to me, obviously no, and in fact this seems like a relatively common feature of torture: e.g. forcing prisoners to dig their own graves requires a good amount of compliance from the victim and that's a major reason why it's so distressing
anyways the vault scene was what got me thinking about torture in media and got me to rewatching jacob geller's fantastic video essay "analyzing every torture scene in call of duty" which actually cites this paper.
@dellerose peer reviewed tags
[Image ID: tag that reads "#damn even the paper researching torture in media excuses torture in media we are so screwed"]
okay, for one thing, he doesn't "lean back," he is pushed by the scientists. also! the chair restrains him. but even apart from that, how do you watch that scene and get "active and willing participant." Pierce literally hits him when he doesn't answer a question quickly enough.
could Bucky have called a halt to the scene, for any reason or none? because if the answer is anything other than "yes he could have", then this is not a kinky funtimes scene for Bucky
it for sure hits the kinky funtimes buttons for many audience members, which is enough reason in itself to put such a scene in the movie, and I refuse to speculate on whether it hit the kinky funtimes buttons for the actor; actors in such scenes, however, (had better) have, and the movie audience most certainly has, options this character was denied: in particular, the ability to nope out of there
Yeahhhh the comparison to 50 shades is Not Appropriate lmfao
Okay but can we also talk about how fraternity pledge hazing—which has actually fucking killed people—is not considered torture. I would argue that not everyone is a willing participant. I mean how many of them are actually able to revoke consent? Does not seem safe sane or consensual to me. And we’re just gonna pretend that’s not torture?
I also thought about this. Hazing in many different contexts includes all sorts of violence, including sexual violence. (I read the Wikipedia a while back for list of hazing deaths. It is very brutal!) I thought to myself, "I think I can understand why they would exclude it for the purposes of this study, but I'm not sure why...I need to think about it more."
This study made a lot of assumptions about torture I don't know if I agree with, and the more I think about it the more disagreeing I am. For example, It also split torture up into punitive torture vs. torture for information, but I think that misses some significant motivations behind torture, which are torture out of sheer hatred or contempt, or torture to enforce power and dominance over a person.
It seems similar to the way rape is discussed: it is assumed to be motivated by a certain thing (sexual desire) and to have a certain context, which narrows the ability to recognize sexual violence in the world when it has the pretext of some other motivation, or when it happens in a situation that isn't expected.
When doing some academic reading on torture (inspired by Jacob Geller's video essay) I came across a quote that was like, "All rape is torture and all torture is rape." I think there's a reason those are different words and it's useful to have them both, but it gave me something to think about.
I think I don't quite wrap my head around why hazing happens yet, but it seems on an intuitive level very connected to other forms of mob violence/ violence perpetrated by a group. It is inherently connected to the idea of in-group and out-group, and by experiencing the violence you become part of the in-group, which means you get a turn at perpetrating it.
But this seems the same as a lot of abusive dynamics, except it manifests in a clearer and more dramatic way.
