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@deepsouthradfem
Anger is our friend. Not a nice friend. Not a gentle friend. But a very, very loyal friend. It will always tell us when we have been betrayed. It will always tell us when we have betrayed ourselves.
– Julia Cameron, "The Artist's Way"
hey! because this seems to go over your head, i thought i ought to let you know: its really, really easy to let trans people exist without being a dick :)
good thing I've never killed a trans person then
you can be a dick without killing people <3
I'm letting them exist. that was my main point.
you let them exist, yes, but not without being a dick. that was my main point
how am I a dick?
Doesn’t need to be explained, everyone here knows you’re a dick plain and simple. You’re not a feminist if trans women aren’t included in that.
why? who decided that? how am I supposed to stop being a dick if I don't know what I'm doing wrong??
well, firstly, the fact that you think respecting trans women and never having killed a trans person are the same thing gives a pretty clear picture as to what kind of person you are.
I never said that. the anon said I'm not letting trans leke exist but I am! the only way I would be not letting them exist would be by killing them.
Killing someone is definitely not where the line is, op
if we're speaking literally, then not letting someone exist would mean killing them. I'm not saying that's the boundary for respect..
Really? Have you ever heard of suppression? That’s definitely not letting something exist by claiming that “trans women aren’t women” op. The definition of suppression is trying to forcibly end something, that’s exactly what you’re trying to do by making your radfem claims.
how are they women? what is a woman?
A woman is a social constructs created by society. They feel like women, so they are in turn, women. It’s as simple as that.
so being a woman is feeling like a woman. then what does a woman feel like?
ah ok. so a woman is-
someone gentle, empathetic, humble, sensitive, have long flowing hair and clear skin, someone skinny with no body hair or facial hair, and are less favorable leaders.
that's what a woman is?
It’s not what a woman is, it’s what society has deemed as feminine. If someone wants to identify as a women they’ll want to feel aligned with their feminine attributes. I’m not saying this is what a women is, in saying this is what a trans woman might feel more comfortable as
then what is a woman?
https://youtu.be/AU1A8B2NuSw
Here’s a trans YouTuber I like, she’s extremely funny and sweet! She’s also a woman
can you give me a solid definition of woman that will apply to every single woman
Ok fine:
If they wanna be a woman, they’re a woman
There’s something that applies to every single woman. A solid definition? Not everyone is that same, so there is no definition of a literal gender
so a woman is anyone who wants to be a woman
now here's your mistake: a word can't define itself. you gave me a circular definition
That because a woman is a construct, it doesn’t have to be a definition. Everyone has a different feeling of what a woman is, including trans woman.
woman is a word we made to describe a specific thing. it was made to specify when one is talking about adult females of the human species without having to say that every time. language is a construct, doesn't mean words don't have meaning.
@crisis-ultimate
"female" and "male" become as meaningless as "floopdiloop" without a real definition. we need these terms to mean something because they denote oppressed and oppressor classes along the axis of sexism. the immutable traits these words describe are the traits for which women (by which I mean female humans) have been oppressed worldwide for all of human history. if "woman" means nothing, we have no language to describe ourselves as a marginalised group fighting for our rights and safety. the only reason you think it's harmless for a man to identify as a woman is because you don't truly believe women are oppressed. no one would have to explain to you why a white person can't identify as a black person and then say they're the most oppressed type of black person because no one actually sees them as black and because they're not getting access to resources specifically reserved for black people. the fact that a man can perform femininity and y'all will jump to say that makes him just as– if not more– oppressed for being a woman as the women who are groomed on the basis of their female sex from the second they're born, as the women in menstrual huts, as the women attacked with acid, as the women forced to carry their rapists' babies to term, as the women denied jobs on the assumption they'll later leave to be homemakers or on the assumption that they're unqualified because they're female, as the women groomed into being housewives for men much older than them specifically because of their perceived female fertility.... I could go on forever because that's how fucking infinite the list of sex-specific issues ""AFAB""s face on the basis of being ""AFAB"". there is a millennia-old history of misogyny and it is demonstrably (and obviously!!) sex-based. What trait are women oppressed for if not their sex? with your airy bullshit non-definition of womanhood, how do the oppressor class (men) even tell whom to oppress? if "woman" is so internally self defined and meaningless, how did they know whom to deny the vote? who couldn't open a bank account? whom to forcibly impregnate? whom to marry off with a dowry? this so-open-minded-your-brain-falls-out lack of critical thought from libfem "activism" makes it seem like people are oppressed for wanting to perform femininity as though femininity itself isn't something which is artificially superimposed through intense socialisation of most "AFAB"s from birth. women weren't denied the vote because they were the ones in skirts, they were denied the vote and restricted to skirts because they were female. "a woman is anyone who identified as a woman is a woman is a woman is a woman" is tautological empty nothingness on par with the meaningless "floopdiloop"; it is not progressive and it is actively hindering feminism's progress.
so again: define woman.
how terrifying, to be aging and girl. at 18 i was told by men that i was “the perfect age,” and i still thought it was a compliment. is it because at 20 i figured out how sharp those words were. i felt old at 21, felt like if grey hairs came and my spine cracked i was done for. how scary. i am reminded constantly by “realistic” ideas in fantasy novels that i should have five kids.
my life feels short. like it is squeezed into my twenties. like at 30 i become ghost, just another mother or hard worker or both, just another background character. like if i am not settled and making a difference by 27 i should just give up already. is this something men feel? like a clock is painted on their back, one hand warning: your beauty is something you are valued for and it is something you cannot get back.
and why was i only beautiful, i wonder, at 18 on a riverbank. i’m told often my childish face is a blessing. that i shouldn’t want to look older. one told me i was a trap falling: “you look young but you’re not” he said to me, “it kind of led me on”. am i not young?
maybe i am wrong. maybe it’s just how we all feel, getting old, like time is slipping from us. maybe men do worry that they will be alone forever if they don’t settle by thirty, maybe it’s even because they think they’ll turn ugly. maybe we all squish our lives into that incredibly young decade. what do i know. i’m still learning.
I’m almost 25 and I’ve been feeling this a lot lately.
As a 48 year old lesbian, I offer my perspective on aging, and you all can take it or leave it.
Our understanding of our own aging is very much conditioned by the priorities of straight men, who in the aggregate understand beauty and femininity, indeed women in general, in literally superficial terms. Most of the ads you see for anti-aging products, for instance, focus on its *visible* symptoms: graying hair, wrinkling skin or discolored skin, sagging breasts, changes in body shape, etc. These are the symptoms of female aging that men perceive, and they are the ones that the cosmetics and the larger anti-aging industry therefore target. (Men do have their own anxieties about visibly aging, mostly related to hair loss and body shape; but they are not, for instance, generally terrified by the appearance of wrinkles, unless they work in the entertainment industry.)
But aging is not just something that happens to everyone else’s perception of you; it is something that happens in your own body, at levels deeper than anyone else (especially anyone male) is ever likely to perceive. From my POV the really important thing about aging is how you feel. Your body is where you live; it is for you. Aging is inevitable, but it can to some extent be intentional, in that you can (to some extent; all this is limited by the amount of time and money available to you and the healthfulness of the environments you have lived in and how you did in the DNA lottery) choose to do things that will help preserve the things about your body that make YOU happy to be living there–things like flexibility, strength, and the smooth functioning of your major organs. Generally, if you’re healthy, you don’t think about any of this stuff at 18 or 25; but when you are 40, you will start to take more of an interest as you come to understand how important all of this is to your own ability to enjoy life.
So that sucks, as does menopause, which is the unacknowledged referent of a lot of cultural anxieties about female aging. But the point I want to make is: one of the worst things that the phenomenon described so evocatively by the OP does to girls and young women is to make them so anxious about their own bodies that they are unable to enjoy and appreciate their youth while they have it. And that is theft. It really is. I miss youth, but even more do I regret the fact that when I was young I was so fucked up by cultural obsessions about female beauty that I was unable to fully enjoy the body that I had then. I did not appreciate its many excellent qualities, and it was a long time before I allowed myself to accept and act on its desires. At a time when I was beautiful, I thought I was fat and ugly, and that because no man would ever find me attractive, I was doomed to loneliness and isolation. After I met Mrs. Plaidder, her conviction of my beauty eventually passed into me. As a result, I enjoyed my life in general a lot more in my 30s than I did in my teens. I’ve enjoyed my 40s more too, apart from the cancer and the current catastrophe. Age does actually bring experience and knowledge and, to those able to profit from it, wisdom. You do gain, even as you lose.
Catullus, yelling in Latin verse at his lover Lesbia, asks her venomously, “cui videberis bella?” By whom will you be seen to be beautiful? It’s a question that still poisons our sense of self and our understanding of our own possibilities. By myself, asshole, she should have replied; and so may we all, at any age.
Long post, but - my three cents. At 67 I don’t feel old and/or ugly. In fact, I really enjoy myself. I’m happy with how I look - because I got over the brainwashed way we see ourselves. As plaidadder said: “even more do I regret the fact that when I was young I was so fucked up by cultural obsessions about female beauty that I was unable to fully enjoy the body that I had then.” BTW, plaidadder - you are STILL beautiful, trust me. The American cult of youth and they way of evaluating women’s beauty as inevitably liked to age is fucking TOXIC. I now live in South America; was complemented ( in a non-creepy way) by two guys less than half my age last week, grey hair & all. Love it here.
You will never feel as old as you do in your late 20s to late 30s. Seriously. Western culture makes the passing of youth into a tragic death and that’s – so fucking sad. Once it has passed and you can no longer reasonably think of yourself as young, no matter how desperately you try to hang on to it – you find yourself in a whole other country, you realize that you’ve lived on one side of a mountain all your life and told there’s nothing beyond it only to discover that there is, in fact, an entire world on the other side. Don’t believe the lie.
I enjoyed this post. I also lacked the clarity on culturally imposed bullshit to enjoy my youth and beauty, and at 47, I have good days and bad days. I’m looking forward to one day not giving a flying fuck what anyone thinks about my body. I’m embarrassed and a little ashamed to report that I’m not there yet.
What I like about getting older (I’m 46.) is that the less “attractive” I become, the more I get to fill that space with things I choose. The more invisible I become as a person with whom someone may wish to have sex, the more I can just wear clothes that I like and think are pretty, the more I feel free to let my hair have no real “style.” I wear flat shoes that I think are cute. I wear the same earrings I’ve worn for twenty years. I get to choose to present myself as eccentric or artsy or sloppy or outdated without much commentary from the peanut gallery, because nobody is concerned any more with my fuckablity. And without the constant input, I have more room for my own opinion.
Not that I’m there all the time, but I’m sure there a hell of a lot more often than when I was in my twenties.
One of the things I love best about tumblr (and there are many, many things) is that here I have found a circle of middle-aged and older women who are kind and wise and brave, and are willing to share their experiences and to mentor younger women through aspects of aging. I’m 40, and I feel like I am beginning a journey into a new phase of life with a tribe of women beside me. It is so hugely valuable. ❤️
Well, at 67, I can tell you that finally no one is looking at me like a tarted-up slab of meat with a vagina. Of course, I’m easy to mistake for a little old lady now, my hair having come in a disorderly charcoal grey after my chemo. But that’s a fun stereotype to work (some years ago the teens I was working with described my personal style as “granny goth”), and it also lets you comment and converse with other people with impunity: no one really worries if their kid shares a word in the store with “that granny” and when someone is unspeakably rude, you can just fire right back at them and they actually, sometimes, demonstrate at least momentary guilt. I dress for my own comfort—although I believe one can demonstrate respect by dressing nicely for things like meetings or travel, I tend to mean beyond what simply amuses me that I am clean, relatively ordered, and have all body parts covered that would cause arrest in my local jurisdiction.
The rest of it? Fuck that noise; I’m old and I haven’t got time for that shit.
Just to chirp in (45). One of the many gifts of the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival was the intergenerational community of dykes. So first, as a dyke, I wasn’t around men a lot who were telling me how unfuckable I was. So aside from the general socialization, inside stepped a ton of bullshit. But also, at 21 I was hanging with wyms who were 40, 50, 60. I was seeing all of these older women in their fullness and glory and sexiness and intelligence and BEAUTY and like everything that happened there, I realized the head trips about aging were a lie.
These women, who embraced being crones, were EVERYTHING. I wanted to be them. And as I age, I remember their power, their gorgeousness. I aim for it with all my might.
Unlearning lies is such hard work, but patriarchy spends a lot of energy reviling things that are powerful.
I can’t believe all the wisdom in these posts above. you GO. I am so in love with all y’all.
There is so much women are not only not taught, but flat-out LIED TO about aging. Even within fandom, a space that is very much women-driven, occasionally you come across someone trying to pressure older women to bow out because our mere presence makes some people uncomfy (and sometimes by “older” they mean over 30, never mind the 40+, 50+, 60+ women speaking up here).
Because we are not taught to respect older women as sexual beings, as beings with our own interests, our own passions, our own weaknesses, and our own right to take up space and be fully present even though we are no longer sexually desirable (to SOME) and might not be willing or interested in taking up a “mom/grandmom” role.
When I was in my 20s I was doing a lot of music writing and one of my biggest role models who I sort of knew personally was Deena Weinstein, who was doing exceptional work on metal culture - very little studied in academia at that time - and she was doing it as a (at the time) very rare visibly middle-aged woman at metal shows banging her head off to Cannibal Corpse. (She is not “detached.” She’s in the mosh pit. She loves the fuck out of it, and it shows.) Lots of people were lining up to tell her in one way or another she ought to be “acting her age,” whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean. I looked up to her as the giant badass she is.
A few things they don’t tell you about aging, that I know at 48 (and I know to some people here, I’m still a baby, and that’s OK)
1. Menopause is real and for some people perimenopause takes years. Holy shit. It’s as big an upheaval as puberty - but, like puberty, it’s not a disaster it’s just a shift. Respect it but don’t fear it. Most of all, don’t fear talking about it honestly.
2. Being sexually invisible to strange men is a fucking blessing, especially if you take public transit every day. What a gift to actually be able to read in peace most of the time. Don’t dread this!
3. Judgmental opinions of trivial people become a lot more obvious for what they are, over time.
4. Your interest in sex might decrease. OR IT MIGHT NOT. IT MIGHT EVEN INCREASE. In a culture that is horrified by the sexuality of older women, consider who is served by the assumption that loss of libido is a thing that always happens. (Or that it should.)
5. You ARE still the same person you were at 17, at 24, at 39, etc. You’re just a little bit MORE that same person.
6. You have the right to discuss and write about any age you’ve passed through. You own your experiences and you can do with them as you will, creatively. You have been a child, a teenager, a young adult, a middle-aged person - you have memories that you are always entitled to draw upon, for any reason at any time.
I’m so, so fucking glad I’ve had women friends older than me (and in some cases, older than my own parents) since my early 20′s. Seeing women older than me enjoying their lives and being interesting and doing fun things and even (gasp!) having active sex lives, meant I haven’t been nearly as freaked out about getting older.
Things I have enjoyed about getting older to this point (37):
Increased self confidence
Learned patience
Managing my anxiety and depression
Enjoying the body I have, right now as it is
Things I am not enjoying:
why is it so hard to get off the floor??
I get tired from physical activity faster
I can fuck up my back/neck in 0.5 seconds
Things I give zero fucks about:
grey hair
wrinkles
For all of you up thread fretting about menopause, feel free to ask (my inbox is open). I’ve actually been through it twice, one naturally and then because that didn’t work out as well as hoped, surgically. And I’ve done a lot of research on the topic. So fuck the conspiracy of silence and know that I’m available for questions or just blowing off steam.
I love this thread. This is so affirming and things I wish I’d been shown in my 20s.
Also as a 35 can I emphasise things that might already be mentioned or not above that I’ve also noticed since hitting my mid 30s:
Love:
Not feeling the pressure to wear makeup or heels or ‘co-ordinate my outfit’ because I just don’t feel like caring about that any more (despite anxiety still being an issue, this doesn’t bother me the way it used to)
Feeling like a cool spy when I do do the whole ‘pretty woman with perfect clothes and femme presentation’ thing. I only do it when I know I’ll get something out of it (job interview, bullshit meetings, ‘dressy’ events) which makes those occasions feel like undercover cosplay and waaay more interesting since it basically becomes LARPing.
Feeling absolutely confident dressing up to the exact level I want to despite the circumstance.
I get why people were telling me all those things about real friends actually giving a shit about you. I get it now.
Cool becoming something I get to define, not something other people tell me to aspire to.
Not. Giving. A. Shit. About. Shaving.
Hate:
Back problems
Neck problems
Gut problems
Feet! Ankles! Knees! Oh my!
JOWLS??? (Bear with me I’ll get over that but… it was a shock)
Oh shit I actually have to sleep, eat and hydrate properly now.
Less physical stamina
Zero fucks:
Grey hair and wrinkles
Boob sagging
Weight
Ever increasing amount of errant facial hair
Being unfuckable to random strangers
Love this post and all the responses. What a pleasure to read!
I’ll turn fifty later this year.
The thing I like most about being this age is seeing the multiple, extremely challenging practices / passions / obsessions I’ve taken on in my life coming to fruition. Writing is hard. You get better at it after doing it for a long time. Internal martial arts and meditation, which i teach, are extremely challenging and nuanced to learn. You get better at them after long, careful study. (And bonus: I’m living proof that even though aging is real and the body definitely changes, that doesn’t have to mean pain and deterioration. I’m stronger now than I was at twenty-five, by a long shot)
I’m at the point with a lot of stuff I do where I feel like I’m achieving mastery. This includes my personal life, too: although it’s been a really weird and tricky past couple of years, my challenges aren’t throwing me like they used to. There’s a deep, wild pleasure to be found in persistence. It’s totally worth it.
56 and fresh out of fucks to give.
45 and love every damn thing about this post. This is why I wish the internet, and spaces like tumblr had been more of a thing when I was in my teens/20s.
Wow, it’s been a while since I last saw this come around and never with all these other responses! Thank you everyone for the additions!
I’m 52. I’ve got some bits that hurt more than I’d like, but I haven’t had a menstrual cramp in years. The trade off’s totally worth it.
I’ll be 52 this year. My joints and skeleton deciding to randomly hurt? Not fun. Giving even LESS of a shit about what people think of my appearance? AWESOME.
Also, peri-menopause was horrible, but menopause is great.
I’m 37 and one of the great gifts my life has given me is being able to watch my mom, currently 71, age over time. I’ve gotten to see her go from a warmhearted but timid woman worried about upsetting people to a beautifully grey-haired still warmhearted woman whose younger female coworkers look to her in meetings to speak up about things they’re too intimidated to oppose. And she does. I’ve gotten to see her weather a divorce, put herself through grad school while in her 50s, buy a house and manage it on her own (no joke in a rural area with lots of snow), get laid off in her 60s and find a new job that paid better and respected her more. At 71, when her friends offered to set her up with someone, she responded with “Maybe? If we don’t have to see each other too much. And he never comes over. You know what? Actually no.” She just bought her first chainsaw and used it. She asked for a large stuffed polar bear for Christmas because “It’s just so huggable!” and then sent me pictures of it posed in various ways around her house because it amused her. When she told me about speaking up in meetings, she said giddily “I just don’t care anymore. It’s great!” I’m now a 37-year-old, happily single, house-owning woman looking forward to going grey who speaks up in meetings and invites friends over for puzzle-and-Lego parties, and at least 80% of that can be traced back to thinking that my mom is pretty cool, actually.
Never underestimate the power of being unashamed.
💖 Shoutout to all:
♀ Intersex women
♀ Women who have had a hysterectomy
♀ Infertile women
♀ Women with more testosterone etc,
who are constantly used as examples and thrown under the bus to include males as females as if you were less of a female. Your existence isn’t equivalent to being male. Our spaces are for you 💖
Brené Brown, Daring Greatly
Reblog if you agree.
I agree
all the time if i don’t reblog assume the worst
I love this song
South Korean beauty standards take shit to the next. Fucking. Level. Women are evaluated in totality based on every minor physical detail and whether it matches the ideal to the point where their decision to go under the knife for procedures the likes of blepharoplasty (surgery on their eyelids) is a main determinant of whether they get a job. For them, shit like this is an expectation. Fuck that garbage, burn it up ladies.
In Korea you are literally REQUIRED to have a headshot with your application. Your physical appearance is a major vetting point in the interview. Applicants have literally been told to bleach their skin for jobs. Seoul is the plastic surgery capital of the world.
This is HUGE for them. Support them. Even if you love makeup, their beauty culture is TOXIC. Support this movement
Blessed_Skeletor
someone recommend me some good fantasy books that aren’t centred on a war, please, my crops are dying
The Greta Helsing novels by Vivian Shaw - practical doctor to the undead defeats mildly ominous interdimensional threats with the aid of domestic vampires and a demon accountant.
Sunshine by Robin McKinley - practical baker is captured by vampires, escapes, reluctantly teams up with better vampire to kill the bad one.
Howl’s Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones - young hat maker ages 60 years overnight, proceeds to upend the life of a disaster wizard while learning self-confidence.
the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett - hard to encapsulate, but equally funny and hard-hitting, tackling race and gender and corruption and other forms of inequality while also, like, making fun of post offices and Hollywood and Shakespeare. Three or four tackle war, true, but there’s something like 35 others to choose from.
the Accidental Turn series by J.M. Frey - recent Ph.D of colour lands in the Fantasyland™ she did her thesis on, goes off about agency and diversity while recovering from the Dark Lord’s attentions and learning the truth about her fictional crush.
Middlegame by Seanan McGuire - evil alchemist creates superpowered children to assist world takeover; children just want to be a family; family is complicated.
Spinning Silver by Naomi Novik - young woman takes over family business, must outwit fairies with a love of gold.
the Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede - princess runs away to become a dragon’s housekeeper, fights off rescuers, solves problems large and small, melts wizards.
the October Daye novels by Seanan Mcguire - Half-fae detective solves murders, finds missing persons, develops found family, can’t stop self from upending the social order.
The Golem and the Djinni by Helene Wecker - A quiet golem, a tempestuous djinn, Gilded Age New York. Immigrants, identity, friendship, hope, and self-discovery.
An Unkindness of Magicians by Kat Howard - A witch from an outsider House enters New York’s magical Hunger Games, to prove a point. The problems of magic were not intended.
Zoo City by Lauren Beukes - Part-time con artist gets hired to find two missing pop stars, with the help of the magical sloth on her back. Noir ensues.
Child of a Hidden Sea by A.M. Dellamonica - Nature photographer lands on water-world, discovers lost family, tries to convince self magic is impossible.
Gods Behaving Badly by Marie Phillips - Greek gods, washed up in North London, curse Apollo to fall for the cleaner. Existential crisis, meet rom-com.
Among Others by Jo Walton - Loner teen sent to boarding school, discovers science fiction, might know fairies and do magic.
Tooth and Claw by Jo Walton - Austenesque story except all the characters are dragons.
Every Heart a Doorway (and sequels) by Seanan McGuire - the children of portal fantasy end up in boarding school coping with being kicked out of their various worlds, then some of them start getting murdered.
The Gracekeepers by Kirsty Logan - the world is flooded, there’s a lady who works with a bear at a circus that sails to different places to perform, and a lady who is sort of an undertaker, and they fall in love
Lud-in-the-Mist by Hope Mirrlees - there are fairies but no one talks about them anymore because That’s Just Not How We Are except this state of affairs cannot possibly last and people start getting lured to fairyland
The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison - fifth son of emperor who’s lived his whole life away from court abruptly becomes emperor when his father and older brothers are killed in an accident, spends entire book trying to make friends and figure how the fuck to do a) confidence and b) ruling ethically
The Various by Steven Augarde - girl spends summer at uncle’s farm, finds the group of “various” (no direct parallel, but think somewhere between gnomes and pixies) that live in the woods, mysterious history, flying horse, The Cat Is Evil (this is technically middle grade but it’s so good I can’t even)
Turning Darkness Into Light by Marie Brennan - working on the translation of an ancient text is complicated when it might have a huge impact on the public perception of a highly stigmatised group; subterfuge, found family, mythology, and the rejection of men who steal other people’s work.
My crops are watered
Oooo, good list. Already includes faves of mine but lots of new stuff too.
Happy Valentine’s Day!
Jo March
It's super sexist to define "women" by having xx chromosomes and a vagina that's why I, an adult man who discovered my female lesbian identity through lesbian porn, should define "women" as a conglomeration of ultra feminine stereotypes that cannot be easily measured or proven in any sustainable manner
like. you're going to get called a terf if you try to approach gender with anything less than full, 100% compliance and submission. it's useless to try to debate these things w nuance, empathy, or even vitriol. at the end of the day, i'm a woman and you're not. you can't be me and you never will be. and i sleep fine and comfortable w that. i have nothing more to say about it. die mad about it.
